283 | Navigating the Sea of Fashion Greenwashing with Elizabeth Joy
Our guest this week on the pod is Elizabeth Joy. Elizabeth is the founder of Conscious Life & Style, a mindful digital media destination that creates resources to encourage a thoughtful lifestyle and to support pathways to personal, collective, and planetary wellbeing. She founded the company once she recognized that her love of fashion was at odds with her passion for social justice, human rights and sustainability.
And a special thanks to members of the Awarepreneurs Community for sponsoring this episode!
Resources mentioned in this episode include:
Awarepreneurs is one of the world’s longest running social entrepreneur podcasts and our community is a great resource for anyone interested in social entrepreneurship.
How to Launch a Thriving Sustainable Fashion Brand - an interview with Elizabeth Joy
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
SPEAKERS
Paul Zelizer, Elizabeth Joy
Paul Zelizer 00:02
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to the Awarepreneurs podcast. On this show, we dive deep into wisdom from some of the world's leading social entrepreneurs. Our goal is to help you increase your positive impact your profitability, and your quality of life. Before we get into today's topic I upon request, if you could hit subscribe and do a review on your favorite podcast app, it helps more people learn how to have positive impact through values based business. Thank you so much. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Elizabeth Joy. And our topic is How to Launch a Thriving Sustainable Fashion Brand. Elizabeth founded Conscious Life and Style once she recognized that her love of fashion was at odds with her passion for social justice, human rights and sustainability. Elizabeth, welcome to the show.
Elizabeth Joy 00:51
Hi, Paul, thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Paul Zelizer 00:55
I was joking before we hit record. I was like … fashion greenwashing. Is there even anything to talk about? Maybe, just maybe there might be a thing or two to talk about here? Right?
Elizabeth Joy 01:06
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, it the fashion space is just flooded with greenwashing. And it's like, there's new tactics every day. So it can get very confusing. But I think this conversation, I hope that I can share some tips with people, and how they can navigate that because it is it is challenging.
Paul Zelizer 01:27
It really is. And I'm so glad you're here. We're gonna get into all that before we do, Elizabeth, just if I'm a listener, I don't know who Elizabeth joy is. What would I want to know a little bit about your backstory and why you're passionate about fashion and sustainability and social justice, like what's contributed to that intersection of your work?
Elizabeth Joy 01:48
Yeah, so I had always been interested in fashion. Growing up, I had like the Teen Vogue career guide, How to get a career in fashion. And then in 2013, I learned about the Rana Plaza factory collapse, which was a factory that housed like garment workers. And the building collapsed and killed over 1000 people in Bangladesh and in 2013. And that was like a real wake up call. And that just that pushed me to look so much deeper into the fashion industry and the realities of the human rights abuses. So I really came at it through the lens of like the social lens. And then through the years, I learned about fashions, horrible environmental impact, and all the pollution and the emissions and its reliance on fossil fuel fabrics, and all these layers. And I just felt so discouraged by it all, because as I said, I loved fashion. And I didn't want to give it up. So I founded conscious life and style. I started just by sharing brands that I was finding that we're doing things more sustainably. But as I did that, you know, the space has gotten much bigger. And there have been a lot more questions and complications with this, like what is sustainable, what is ethical. And so we've been expanding. So now I have like a team of writers, and we work hard to create resources as well. So we do still have curated brand guides. But I also want to make sure that we're an educational resource for people and kind of helping people sort through all of the buzzwords, what do they mean? What are the, you know, what is a living wage? And why does that matter? And why is fashion not ensuring living wages, and there's so many more layers than we think could be because a lot of the layers of the supply chain are hidden from us. And there's a lot more steps than we might assume. So it's been a constant journey. And I'm so grateful that I get to learn also, through the guests that I bring on to my podcast, because there is just more than I could ever imagine to this conversation. Like when you talk about sustainable fashion. People think it's very niche, and it is to an extent, but there's so much that we can dive into with that. And that lights me up like every day and I just love focusing on sustainable fashion.
Paul Zelizer 04:24
Yeah, people who are listening to the show, you should probably only care about this show. If a you wear clothes. And B you want a planet that humans can live on going forward. That's the show, right?
Elizabeth Joy 04:39
Yeah, that's such a great point. Because like, we engage with clothes, so whether we consider ourselves part of the fashion industry or not, we wear clothes and shoes and so we are a part of the fashion industry by default, even if it's not intentional. Yeah.
Paul Zelizer 04:58
So let's you were talking about defining terms, one of the terms that like you kind of have to, or you're gonna stumble across, if you're gonna get into a conversation like this, you're gonna hear the term fast fashion. And if somebody's like, All right, I've heard that or maybe they haven't heard that, but they're like, going to do a little digging after this episode. And they're like, Wow, it's everywhere. What is that fashion? And like, when you bring your educated mind to it, what does it mean to you?
Elizabeth Joy 05:27
Yeah, so as it sounds, the defining factor of fashion, a fast fashion is its speed. So fast fashion is very quickly made, sometimes going from design to doorstep in just a few weeks. It's mass produced, cheaply made, typically very trendy, and designed for the moment, not for the long haul. And it's typically made using synthetic fabrics like polyester, which is derived from petroleum, though I wouldn't say that's a defining factor, because as we'll get into a little bit more with the greenwashing now, brands are starting to bring in some other slightly better materials, but it doesn't change the fact that they're still a fast fashion. And so I would say that the biggest impact of fast fashion is the scale. So they're made in these massive, massive quantities, either, you know, a set number of styles, making 1000s and 1000s of each style, or we have like ultra fast fashion brands, which are even faster, like she in or pretty little thing. They sort of flip this and they release 1000s of new styles every day. And she and prides itself on having smaller quantities of these styles. And it's funny because I saw this email exchange between like, sustainably minded influencer and Shane and Shane was saying, Well, we're sustainable because we only produce in small quantities. And it's like, yeah, but small quantities of 6000 new styles every day, which is still a lot of clothes. So they try to get around that. But basically, overproduction and pushing over consumption is core to the fast fashion business model. And, like Zara, and h&m and forever 21 were kind of like, I would say, the original Modern day fast fashion brands, you know, I have spoken with a fast or fashion historian, and she was pointing out that, you know, fast fashion could even be dated back to the early 1900s. Because that was the rise of mass produced fashion, which is definitely an interesting thing to think about. But in terms of the modern day fast fashion, I would say like Zara and h&m Forever 21 were sort of the originals. And then these ultra fast fashion brands came around, which are even faster.
Paul Zelizer 08:05
And so there's the fast in terms of like, how it's produced. And then other folks have pointed out to me, there's also fast in terms of the mindset like you think of like the fall collection in the winter collection in the spring collection and the summer collect, like, we're supposed to, like get new clothes. And I think it's particularly true in more modern economies, and particularly true for people who have more visible careers may be more true for women and men. But anyway, like that, that mindset that like we're supposed to churn our closet very quickly, right? Like if you wear something that's in purge doesn't have a stain or rip, and it still looks nice, but it's from last year or two years ago, like there's something wrong with you. And what happens with all those clothes when we mask, you know, billions of humans or millions, hundreds of millions of humans are turning over their closets at that kind of pace. It's completely unsustainable. So that was another layer of fast fashion that somebody pointed out to me as well.
Elizabeth Joy 09:11
Yeah, I absolutely love that point. Because we can all engage you know, fast fashion and slow fashion or beyond the brands. Of course, if a fast fashion brand is releasing 52 collections every week, or 365 collections every day that contributes but it's also about our mindset. And definitely we can have a fast fashion mindset about sustainable fashion or slow fashion. There have been recent reports talking about how thrifting and secondhand is a bit becoming like fast fashion and the rates that people are churning through that clothing and doing these huge thrift hauls and then wearing the clothes maybe just once and getting rid of them. And while this might be yes, slightly more sustainable because clothing was used is still not getting to sort of the root of the problem. And definitely when you consider like shipping and packaging, you do have to question the sustainability of that rapid turnover of secondhand if you know it's changing hands 10 times rather than two and staying in your closet for a decade.
Paul Zelizer 10:19
Yeah. So speaking of a decade, about a decade ago, you're like, Alright, there's a problem here in the fashion industry, and you wanted to dive in and understand better, how can people who care about fashion and want to lick it and want to feel good with their clothing? Do that in a way that's more respectful of both the human rights and the sustainability aspect? Tell us a little bit like what were you thinking when you start a conscious life and style? And what did it look like? If we go back 10 or eight or seven years ago? Where did you start?
Elizabeth Joy 10:55
Yeah. So I started with, like those burn guides that I was mentioning, and I started an Instagram and I would just feature other brands, I would take their photos and shout them out and things like that. And then I evolved it to sharing my own photos and my own journey, making it a bit more personal, and then evolved it to where it is today, which is like the educational piece. And one of the barriers I had in the beginning was that I thought I couldn't share more personal things, you share my own photos, because I thought that sustainable fashion look this one way, which was only buying from exclusively sustainable fashion brands. And I was in college at the time and had no budget to buy, you know, a $200 sweater or something like that. And online secondhand wasn't as popular, then it wasn't as accessible. And so I that was like, and that's something that I always try to share with people is that slow fashion and sustainable fashion, look different for everybody. And your journey might be a little bit different. And there isn't just this one way of getting involved, there isn't like this gate to this little fashion community. Even though it might feel like that, sometimes it's really important that we work to make it more inclusive. But that's kind of how it started. It really started as just resharing accounts, and talking about brand guides. And it wasn't even a business really at first it was just a hobby, it was a way for me to showcase my writing it to get other jobs. And it wasn't until I think it was 2020 that I really took it seriously 2019 Maybe and then went full time in 2020. And then the growth really exploded from there once I was really able to like invest all my energy into conscious life and style it
Paul Zelizer 13:03
upon. So explain to us like that's always a beautiful moment. And a lot of our listeners, you know, I remember when I went from, you know, I had a when I was getting out of community mental health and social work, I had a contract that allowed me to live well, there was this kind of weird dream, or startup entrepreneur contract, where I had a federal contract as a social worker paid me really well, hourly, and I could work like 25 hours a week, pay my bills and start my business. Right. So then that moment that jumped right, it was like full time. So talk to us about that moment when you say take it seriously and really poured your energy like, what did that look like going from? Okay, we're writing about it. And you had some brand guides had an Instagram, you started to share a little more personally. And then you're like, Alright, I'm all in what did it look like to go all in?
Elizabeth Joy 13:54
Yeah, so it was definitely a step by step sort of gradual journey. I'm not naturally a big risk taker. So I wanted to make sure that all the ducks were in a row before making that leap. And that maybe did hold me back a little bit longer. However, I am not. I don't regret it necessarily, because I think every step led to what I know and where I am today. So I was at one point working a full time job. And then a transition to working that job and also doing some freelance work in the sustainable fashion space. And then I transitioned to doing freelance work and sustainable fashion and investing more in my blog. And then it came to a point where I was like I was seeing starting to see some really strong results from my website. And I was like, my time is like bunch better spent there. And there were also forms of passive income like affiliate income. And I knew also potentially ads, if I, you know, built up the website traffic to a certain level, I since then removed the ads for my website because I wasn't happy with the types of companies that were showing on my website. But that's a tangent. So I also saw the types of sponsorships that were possible because I was working for a brand and like coordinating these influencer partnerships. And I was seeing other like creators who were had similar audiences to mine, maybe even smaller. And I saw what they were charging, and I was like, wow, I shouldn't I should be doing that. Yeah, I was like, Well, I have a bigger audience than that, like I could be getting, I could be getting this money and really building a business out of it, because I started to, you know, just I enjoy the freelance work, but I just felt like it wasn't, uh, wasn't like what I was meant to be doing. It didn't light me up as much as running my own business. And so when I started to see that I was like, Okay, I'm gonna double down on this. And I spent more and more time on it and worked too much to not have a work life balance at that point, but was eventually able to leave the freelance gigs and go full in on my business. And now we have a team, which definitely helps with that work life balance, and sort of focusing on what I love most about the business.
Paul Zelizer 16:34
started off as like a content creator, and really heavily in the creative. It was like, I have a passion for this. I want to share some things I want to start some conversations and then you started to see things like when you say, you know, it sounds like F bomb listening carefully. It sounds like things like your website traffic, you saw those numbers like Well, those are good numbers. You started to get freelance it was it was like connecting up. And then you started seeing how people were leveraging having a brand where in the in the conscious fashion space and the sustainable fashion, you're like, wow, look at all these different ways people are earning revenue. And you saw some opportunities that you said, Wow, I already have a certain, in some cases, better traffic than these people who I'm like negotiating partnerships with. And you saw that there were more opportunities for revenue than you originally thought. Is that fair to say?
Elizabeth Joy 17:35
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, you know, we see these maybe big influencers are big creators or big entrepreneurs, you know, whatever is sort of in your lane, we see these people who've made it really big. And we think, Oh, well, I need to hit those huge numbers to be successful or to go full time in my business. But it was what was really eye opening to me is that if you do it smart, you don't need a massive audience to make enough money to have it be a full time income and even maybe hire a few contractors, your business your audience doesn't have to be huge, necessarily, if you if you're strategic about it.
Paul Zelizer 18:17
Yeah, I just got interviewed on a podcasting. Wonderful. His name is Ashley, wonderful young man who's really passionate about the podcast base, and I was the guest and we were talking he, we've had some online conversations on LinkedIn, I oftentimes talk about going deep rather than wide. So I'm not trying to be like the next Entrepreneur on Fire, which is like, maybe the most massive entrepreneur focused podcast on the web, like just an insane number of downloads, and it just got a valuation of $15 million dollars, just for the podcast itself, not the products and other things that they designed. You know, I make a really good living but I don't have massive download numbers with this podcast, but it's a deep dive social entrepreneur, podcast, and we're coming up on six years. And, and I've stayed in touch with many of our guests and built an ecosystem and, and just a network in the social entrepreneur space that, you know, allows me to live well, even though I don't have entrepreneurs on fire type numbers. So my vocabulary for what you're talking about is go deep rather than wide. Know your audience. Really create value for that audience as a sport, especially like, you know, it's not 15 years ago, or 12 years ago, and entrepreneurs on fire started, people are looking for more niche information. And if you've created a reputation and a brand as somebody who's really trusted in your case, Elizabeth in the sustainable fashion space, in my case, in the social entrepreneurs base, you can live a great life and not have to be that kind You know, you don't have to be the Kardashians or something. I don't know what the fashion equivalent is, right? But some massive, very wide angle fashion brand, you found a niche. And it's worked really well for you. So I just want to cosign and give some vocabulary, I call that going deep rather than going wide rather know going deep rather than wide. I'm sorry. Yeah, out there.
Elizabeth Joy 20:19
I love that. I love that vocabulary. I think that communicates it so well. And I think that you can build deeper, stronger, yeah, connections with your audience, because it's like, you're maybe providing that specific content, that's the only place that they can find that content, whereas some maybe other content platforms, or podcasts or more general information, which can still be valuable. Like, for instance, at the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, I listened to a lot of these like general entrepreneur podcasts. But there came to a point where I was confronted with some of these more, I guess, specific questions about well, I know that this is the business strategy. But is this an ethical way of marketing? Is this really aligned? Do I really feel good about this? And there's a lack of resources of Yeah, the intersection of sustainability and social responsibility and business and that's something that your podcast is offering that it, you know, you're meeting people at their very specific needs, which is so valuable.
Paul Zelizer 21:32
So speaking, your podcast somewhere along the line, in addition to this, like growing really, you know, getting a lot of traction blog is that I'm gonna podcast to why.
Elizabeth Joy 21:43
Yeah, that was I launched the podcast in 2021. And I was just feeling I had put a lot of eggs in the Instagram basket, and I was feeling a little bit disappointed by all the algorithm changes, and also just not like mentally, it just wasn't the best place to be spending so much time. And I thought, Okay, well, I often leave Instagram feeling worse. But when I listen to podcasts, I feel inspired, I feel ready to take action. I feel excited, I have such a more positive feeling coming out of a podcast than coming out of the Instagram app. And I feel like I can just go so much deeper into these topics. As well as get other insights. You know, I'm on a continual learning journey. And there's so many players in the fashion space. And our podcast is just such a beautiful platform to hear other voices, and get perspectives. And even hear about research from other people. In such a, like, just an honest and nuanced way, I still definitely use Instagram, and I will share like takeaways from the podcast episode, but it tends to be a little bit harder, I feel like to communicate some of the nuances of these issues. And, you know, maybe even get comments or DMS for people who didn't listen to the podcast episode and are just basing their opinion off of the Instagram posts. And I can tell they're missing, like the layers that were intended behind that Instagram post, because, you know, even using all 10 of the carousel images on Instagram, it's still hard to dive into all those layers and communicate exactly what you mean. Like the podcast is a long form as long form content. So you know, maybe like an hour or some podcasts or two and a half hours. Mine is more like around an hour. But still, that's like, that just opens up so much more opportunity. And I just loved it. It's my favorite, like platform. I feel like I actually barely right now, because I've gotten so into audio as a form of communication and like education on these topics. So I'm sure you can relate to that.
Paul Zelizer 24:15
Oh, I'm gonna cut you a big check for all these good things. Why would you want a podcast? Paul, you? I used to blog I was a long form blogger. I did like three to 7000 word blogger blogs twice a month. I basically wrote a chapter and gave it away twice a month for I don't know, eight years before I started podcasting. Right. And so I got really good at writing and I'm with you not that I don't like writing. Not that I dislike social. At one point I was the Director of Social Media for a very significant conscious business brand. So all those things are still in my repertoire, but not Yeah, Nothing even comes close to the level of depth and leaving a conversation feeling inspired whichever side of the mic I'm on, right? It doesn't matter. Like, this is an inspiring conversation. And I'm going to be thinking about it all day. And I'm so glad we were having it. And when I was on the other side with Ashley, we're talking about podcasting and the change and what's going on? And who does video? And what about deep and what, you know, what does that mean? And who should go wide and whatever, just like is just it brings me alive. And I yeah, I'm going to write you a check. But sometimes our our community of social entrepreneurs, explain it to me, Paul, why are you so passionate about podcasting? And Elizabeth, you just, you just gave all my answers. So thank you for doing that. The other thing I want to say about what you said about Instagram, there's lots of research and it's particularly strong for young women, about how spending time on social media, but especially Instagram, has negative consequences on the well being of young women and anybody who's using social media, I think it's who cares about ethics and impact. Not that I'm on social, I use Instagram a little bit, I mostly lean into LinkedIn, because that's where the people I want to connect with as most, you know, that's the main reason. But I feel like to be informed about the impact Instagram is having, in particular, very negative consequences, including higher levels of depression, anxiety and suicidality. For young people, and especially young women, it can be really devastating on young women self esteem and well being. I just want to say that out loud, I'll put a link in the show notes, doesn't mean I'm against using it, but I am willing to have hard conversations. And if somebody's leaning heavily in there, I just want people to know these kinds of things so we can make informed choices.
Elizabeth Joy 26:53
Yeah, absolutely. It can be, it can be tough as a business owner, because you feel like oh, well, people won't even know I exist if I'm not on social media. And that's been something that I'm continually balancing. And I do sometimes get a lot out of Instagram, especially the community aspect, people commenting and DMing, you know, people don't really email you that very often, you know, maybe get like, a reader email, maybe like two a week. But the Instagram DMS, it's you know, full of people sending in. And so it's like, it reduces the barrier of communication. But there's just so I have had to set boundaries with it, you know, I have a timer, like an hour a day maximum, which maybe sounds like a lot, maybe doesn't sound that like that much. But the hour flies by really fast if you're posting like stories and trying to respond to comments and stuff. And also, if I'm feeling overwhelmed that week, I'm like, no Instagram this weekend, like I'm not touching it. And that has been so and then only, like, maybe have a moment of weakness and go on. I'm like, you know, I don't, this isn't even fun. I don't want to be on it. Like I feel I feel my mood dropping, I have to get off of it. And so like setting those boundaries and other weekends, I'm like, you know, I want to be an Instagram, I want to post these Instagram stories of what I'm finding at this secondhand shop, and it feels fine. But so it's a sort of tapping into as well like my state of mind and state of being and like when I'm feeling already down or feeling overwhelmed. Instagram is like the worst thing to do to my psyche. So just like I've been more aware of that as well.
Paul Zelizer 28:40
Thanks for sharing. So honestly, and I can imagine as a fashion brand, just how much the norm is skewed towards Instagram. Yeah, it just it's where that community on the web is more likely to gather than many places because it's such a visual medium. So I really appreciate your honest, like sharing there. And there's a bit then can imagine how much most fashion brands lean in there. And to just be again, be aware of, hey, it has some real strong point. And there's some challenges there really appreciate your willingness to hold both of those and have that conversation with us. So let's do this in a moment. I want to come back in here where things are now and where things are going in the sustainable world and how to better navigate some of the greenwashing that is happening in the fashion industry. Before we do that, I just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. Do you have a business that's about making the world a better place and you want it to grow both in terms of your impact, helping more people and your income so you could live a good quality life? If you do, I'd like to talk to you about some research for a second. When scientists look at what actually contributes to humans reaching their goals, the single biggest predict After whether it's a wellness goal, or it's a business school is what they call social support. In other words, a group of people who are on a similar journey, who can help you with specific strategies that work on that journey at the time and point of development that you're on, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of that journey. Being a social entrepreneur has highs and lows, right? If you like that kind of support, where printers has a community called the AWARE printers community, over 270 really generous and really skillful social entrepreneurs. And that's what we do with each other. We share concrete strategies, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of the journey. If you'd like to find out more, you can take a look at aware printers.com. Forward slash community. And thank you to everybody in the web printers community who helped sponsor this podcast. So welcome back, everybody. In the second part of the show, we'd like to put on our what we joke as our entrepreneurial glasses, Elizabeth. So when you put on your social entrepreneur glasses, and you look at conscious life and style, like right here, we're recording this at the very end of 2022. It'll go live at the beginning of 2023. Like, where is the company? Now, you mentioned that there's a team, talk to us a little bit about what are your revenue sources now? Etc?
Elizabeth Joy 31:28
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so now the team is myself and seven contractors. And, you know, a, I would say medium term goal is to be able to have a couple of be like full time employees, because I just see, like, the value of that having people really invested in the business. But that's, that's a future goal. Currently, our revenue streams are affiliate marketing, sponsorships. And as of like, last month, advertising on the website, I made the decision to remove the ads from the website for the time being, because I was just not happy with the types of companies and brands that were being promoted on the website. And there wasn't any way to restrict that. And I was just getting a little bit like concern if if having those ads for these brands that I did couldn't stand behind, like having those ads on my website, if that sort of counteracted from my, my like goals and the what I was trying to like, share with my audience, you know, it's kind of like a climate publication or climate newsletter having fossil fuel ads running, it just sort of It feels strange. To put it lightly. And so I did make the decision to remove that. And I hope to the New Year, I have some plans in launching a community as well as some digital products. So the community is going to be focused on people who want a career in sustainable fashion, because that's been what my audience has been asking for. And I sort of opened myself up this year to be like, I know in 2023, I want to launch my own products, or like a community or course. And I want to know what my audience really wants, what do they need. And so I just spent this year like really listening. And when I started listening, instead of just putting out whatever I thought it was so clear, what direction that I needed to go next. So that's the plan for 2023 is to keep the affiliate and the sponsorships but also add in a community and potentially depending on how time consuming that community becomes potentially also launch a course or shorter form digital product
Paul Zelizer 34:06
eyes, and you answered this question are you started to answer like I was curious, like when people are coming to your podcast or your blog or following you on Instagram like now here and 2022 How many of them are like I'm trying to figure out what I can wear to be both fashionable but also you know, do it in an ethical and pay attention to sustainability ways. Are there already professionals in the industry, or they want to get into it and it sounds like pretty overwhelmingly that like I want to make a career here I want to work expand a side hustle here that's the large or significant majority is what I hear you saying is that fair?
Elizabeth Joy 34:51
Yeah, so I guess I should also add that in addition to conscious life and style, I also run a platform called Conscious fashion collective If and that platform is kind of where we're going to be hosting the the Career Resources, and that platform, I mean, just in an Instagram poll on we're going to do a more in depth survey in a couple of weeks. But just in an Instagram poll 80% of our audience said that they're looking for a career in sustainable fashion. And 10% said, like, maybe so only 10% were like, No, I don't want a career in sustainable fashion, which was shocking to me. I did not know it was that high. And I'm planning to also do some surveys on the conscious life and style audience, because anecdotally, I have gotten questions, but I'm not sure the percentage of the conscious life and style Audience Yeah, so I'm planning to do some surveys on that, as well.
Paul Zelizer 35:48
So men, audience, if you haven't yet heard me get on my soapbox about doing market research. I'll put a link to an episode on social entrepreneurs doing market research, but I love that you're doing that kind of research, Elizabeth and I sometimes see the results of what happens when people don't do that, right. So I really just want to cosign you know, take out my highlighter and circle what you just said there that data like 80% are like raising both hands. And 10%, raising one hand of this audience, you got 90% of the people who you're thinking of serving saying, yes, go this way. That that's that's pretty good data. And you're in a much better position as a social entrepreneur to create both more positive impact and create a sustainable business and somebody who doesn't have that data, or at least does fuzzier about that. So thank you so much for sharing. And the audience notice something Elizabeth is doing, at least in my opinion, really, really well. So yeah, so you again, you're answering a question that that I wanted to ask, and just see if there's any more nuance like, where are you going from here, and it sounds like you're creating, or you're starting to lean into the cat conscious fashion collective, kind of adjacent brand. And that's going to be a container for people who really want to better understand the opportunities and build their muscles for sustainable fashion careers. Anything else that you're like working on now, as you're looking about where your business is going forward?
Elizabeth Joy 37:32
Yeah. So I just want to quickly explain a little bit more about the conscious fashion collective, I used to work for the woman who founded it, and then she wanted to transition out of it. And so I purchased it from her and yeah, now it's sort of like an adjacent brand. And also to note about the market research. I wanted to add that I did focus groups for the first time last month. And I'm pinching myself, I'm like, Why did I not do this? earlier? I thought I knew the audience. I thought, well, I was a freelancer in this sustainable fashion space. I know what people want. I was trying to get a career in this, like, I know what people are looking for, like, No, I did not, I did not get all of the needs of my community. And the focus groups were just, like, invaluable. Like, I can't believe I didn't do that earlier. So I wanted to add that as well, that even if you think you know your audience from, I don't know, an Instagram conversation or an email, or maybe you are your audience, you can go so much deeper and something like a focus group. But to answer your question, yeah, another place that I hope that we can go in the new year, is having more educational events. And so right now I'm planning one for January that's going to be on mending our clothes. So I want to you know, we focus on education on our platform, but I want to take it a step further and give people the skills that they you no need, whether that's styling, or mending or upcycling or learning about natural dyes, just so people can find tangible ways of getting more involved with sustainable fashion. And also through doing polls and Instagram, I found that mending was far and away what my community was looking for in terms of their like leveling, leveling up their slow fashion journey, so to speak.
Paul Zelizer 39:38
Wonderful. So you've gotten deeper than I have because I've never done a focus group. So yeah, just just big bowtie and I can well imagine how much that is allowing you to be more confident and just clear about how to proceed so I'm making a note for myself focus groups let's
Elizabeth Joy 39:57
well yeah community right I do. Yeah. I can also focus.
Paul Zelizer 40:01
Totally, yeah. So informally, there's lots from social media to community. And what people reach out about which masterclasses and downloads on the podcast, there's lots of data in lots of market research that I'm doing all the time. But nothing quite, I've done surveys, but never just full transparency never done quite a formal focus group. So just about like, you've gone deep, and I want to honor that and celebrate that and appreciate that. And I wish more of our listeners would lean into market research in some way and make it there's and just, again, just highlighting, you've done some really smart things, and I want our listeners to understand that.
Elizabeth Joy 40:43
Yeah, and I was nervous about it at first, because I was like, no one's gonna show up, no one's gonna want to waste their time. But there was a really great response. Because I think people want to be heard, especially if you're saying like, this focus group is so that I can create resources for you. People, like definitely have struggles, and they want to see those like, Matt. And so they might be like more willing to join a focus group than you might think. At first, it was like, do I have to offer money or prize or something, but now people were just more than wanting to share.
Paul Zelizer 41:16
And, and informal way that I approximate some of that as we do q&a calls or the AWARE printers community, and I just pay a lot of attention to the questions people are asking, right, yeah, I know that my ideal client and my the person I'm here to serve as somebody who wants to build a business, that's about making the world a better place. And I've been working for, you know, 15 years on that question, but specifically with the AWARE printers community for five and a half years. And if you look at five and a half years of the questions, people are asking about how to grow their business, and then you wind back, what are all the questions over five and a half years, you start to get some trends? Right? So it's, it's less formal, but yes, you know, and again, I'm less attached audience to like, how do you do surveys? Or do you focus group or D, social, please just pay attention to the data, have more more nuanced data about who you want to serve and what their needs are? And people will tell you, and there are quite a few ways to do it. And Elizabeth, I'm just hearing, you've really leaned into that. And that's what I'm trying to encourage our audience to do more. Yeah. So when you look ahead, like so that's like, what's coming in 2023? If we look ahead, five or 10 years out, and now it's, you know, two brands, adjacent brands, but if you look at both conscious life and style, and where you want that to be in five years, and then same question for conscious fashion collective, like it's five years from now, how do you know it's really thriving? What does it look like?
Elizabeth Joy 42:54
Yeah, so I've spent a lot of time actually developing a five year plan. So I love this question. And we're in that time of year, we're recording this in December, we're in that time of year where, you know, planning ahead and am in that sort of brain space. So I want to further differentiate the two brands, because for a while, they were quite similar. And I was, you know, writer would write a piece and I was like, well, which platform does this even go on? I was like, well, that's a problem. Why do I have two platforms that are basically the same. So within the next five years, I want to double down unconscious life and style being a destination for conscious sustainable living. So although like my podcast, and Instagram is very focused on fashion, the website is a bit more broad, we talk about beauty, we talk about slow travel, we talk about home, you know, home decor, or low waist, a living, and all that kind of stuff. So I hope to just continue with that. Hopefully bring in a few more categories. Like I would love to also talk about plant based diet and mindfulness in terms of meditation and yoga, and just like how we can build slow lifestyles, mindful lifestyles in this busy world. And I want to also expand more into video making and turning us into a multimedia destination. So there's the podcast, but I also want to do video content within the next you know, five years get stronger in that and reach people and whatever sort of media consumption that they prefer. And then conscious fashion collective I want to go further in being a destination for people who want to launch a career in sustainable fashion. And so we're going to do a community and then based on like, the learnings from the community what what are the most important skills are what are the biggest learnings and takeaways people are having? What are they asking for most using that to develop a course as well? And I hope have eventually career coaching, you know, hiring people who are experienced and in the sustainable fashion space and also have a passion for coaching and supporting younger people, and doing career coaching as well for more individualized support. And we also have a job board. So continuing that and expanding also, you know, love a resource specific for freelancers, because I know that is definitely a big part of our community is people who want freelance work. So that's a lot. And I think that can evolve. But that's sort of the North Star. And some of those plans might be in 10 years. But that's, that's where I'm at now, in terms of planning.
Paul Zelizer 45:43
Nice. And we'll put a link to both of those sites in the show notes. So one of the things was was you're still helping people navigate their choices of how do I wear things that make me feel good, make me look good, and try to do it in a way that's paying attention to human rights and sustainability. And you were telling me that you have a resource for that that people can go check out and sign up for?
Elizabeth Joy 46:08
Yeah, definitely. So greenwashing as we were touching on in the beginning is very pervasive and fast.
Paul Zelizer 46:16
It greenwashing guide right. Is that what it's called?
Elizabeth Joy 46:20
Yeah, title to be determined. But I like that. Like how to how to spot and avoid greenwashing is probably what I'll end up titling it. And there also is going to be information about avoiding accidental like greenwashing. Like, as a consumer, you know, your best intentions. You think you know a lot about something and there are some really, there are some tips that I'd like to share that can help you avoid accidentally falling into greenwashing, even as a knowledgeable like conscious consumer because I've fallen for those and I've learned from that. And also for brands, how they can avoid accidentally greenwashing because even sustainably minded brands are ways that they might greenwash unintentionally. So we know the big guys, the big fashion brands are notorious for greenwashing. And some of them even being investigated by consumer watchdogs in various countries for the greenwashing. But even smaller, conscious minded businesses, I've seen some brands sort of accidentally greenwash just by over exaggerating, overstating, maybe the information isn't completely untrue. But it's it's set in a way that's confusing or potentially misleading, things like that.
Paul Zelizer 47:40
Awesome, thank you so much. And again, we'll get a link for where people can sign up and put that in the show notes. So I could hang out with you all day a little bit. You've thought about this, I'm so grateful for you to share with so much depth and nuance. And I know you're busy. And I know our listeners are busy. If there was something you'd like to pass on a recommendation or two to our impact founder, some of whom are quite experienced and are looking to scale. And some of whom are newer and are really trying to find things like a better understanding of who their ideal client is, and their product market fit and really offering something that they get really excited about and figuring out how to create a sustainable revenue in an impact business. We're about 5050, in in who's listening to our show, what might you want to share to those more experienced founders who are looking for scale, and for that person who's excited, and still has a lot of work to do to get the foundation's going. So this can be their full time work? What would you want to share to those two audiences?
Elizabeth Joy 48:50
Yeah, so for people just starting out making their way, I think that I would further emphasize, listen to your audience and do it earlier than I did. And it can be a first you maybe want to replicate all the other things that you see out there that are similar to your niche, which is a solid place to start as you're getting your footing. But then from there, taking those questions in those comments, or those, especially if there's an email, like if someone took time to send you this long, detailed email, asking for feed back or questions, taking time to just note that down and consider that and taking polls, you might be surprised by what people say. So yeah, I would just say listen to your audience, even if they're small, like listen to them right away because I think I fell into this a bit as someone who wanted to change the world and wants to, you know, help shape a better future. I would just share what I thought people should know, which I still You know, I still wanted it to be an educational resource, but also integrating that with what people want to know. That's a lesson that I learned. And I wish I learned it earlier.
Paul Zelizer 50:11
Awesome. Thanks so much for sharing that. So, if there was something you were hoping we were gonna get to, in this interview about your work, and we haven't touched on it, yeah. What would that be Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Joy 50:27
Let's see. I would say that, if you're looking to learn more about sustainable fashion, I have a podcast conscious style podcast and I interview entrepreneurs, designers, garment worker, activists, sustainability professionals, and a variety of people there. And we dive really deep into sustainable fashion and the theme of going deep instead of wide.
Paul Zelizer 50:57
Awesome, so I'll put a link to the podcast as well. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's it's been fabulous having you here.
Elizabeth Joy 51:05
Thank you so much for having me. It was this conversation was, you know, we were talking about the joy of podcasting, this is like, definitely energized me for the rest of the day. So I'll totally
Paul Zelizer 51:17
be smart. I'll tell my buddy. I didn't share this, but I'll say it now at the end. You know, I have a little side hustle where I buy mostly outdoor gear, because I'm a big trail runner. And I sell things like trail running shoes, or like, I don't know, Patagonia fleeces that I find at garage sales, or people just No, I do it, and I sell it. To fund my adventures. It's one of the things that I do. And this morning, a buddy of mine had a pair of shoes that didn't quite work for him. And I had a pair of shoes that were a little too wide for me. And we traded them and then went off on a ride I'll just be smiling inside like this part of my life. I'm not like a super like magazine fashion guy, but I like to look decent. And like I also need based on these adventures I do I need some, like, I need to gear myself up. And it's really expensive to buy stuff new. Right? And, and even the best, even Patagonia or whatever, like, you know, they try to make it sustainable. But the technical fabrics are not great for the planet, right? So anyway, I'm just smiling about that we had this conversation and that there's a personal connection, like I'm able to do things like that. And this this week, I sold a pair of, you know, decent pair of trail running shoes is 150 to $200. And I had found a pair for five bucks that uh, in the people didn't know what it was I paid him $5 And I sold it to this woman for like 15 or 20 I can't remember so I made like a two to 3x return. And she got a pair of 150 or $180 trail running shoes for like 20 bucks or 15 bucks and she was so grateful because she couldn't afford to pair but she wanted one for one set of circumstances and one for another. And she could get both because she bought these shoes that were so affordable that it allowed her to have she got geared up and I tell people this is what I do and people she's like she looked at me and she was so grateful she was like thank you for doing this like like and I said you know I make it halfway decent profit but like still you know, like 15 or $20 for these shoes. She was there almost tears in her eyes and that I that I was able to do this. So anyway I just share that as a way to say like, I've seen this inaction and I think we can get where we need to live a great quality of life and feel good and be active without having to spend $500 on rain gear. And and you know and also just like not have stuff pile up like really make sure each thing that's made is the highest quality but also gets us to the utmost before it's literally falling apart like so I I'm smiling because this is a part of my life in a side hustle kind of way and I so appreciate somebody like yourself who's made it more than just a side hustle but really gone deep and thought in a very nuanced way about these issues. Just a deep bout Yeah.
Elizabeth Joy 54:29
Yeah, well, I love that story. And I love that that's your side hustle. That's so cool. I'm inspired by people who are out in the world doing that like physical reselling, or physically like upcycling, something like that inspires me because that's sort of like, doesn't feel in my skill set. But it's so important. And I think that is Yeah, I feel like the biggest takeaway about sustainable fashion is like we all engage with clothing and choose an outdoor gear, whatever it might be, and how can we participate in whatever Have a way feels reasonable for our lifestyle and our skill sets in a way that's mindful to people and the planet and you know can look so many different ways. And that's that's a really inspiring side hustle. I love that.
Paul Zelizer 55:14
Well, thank you. So I'll be smiling the rest of the day the value Elizabeth and listeners lots of links in the show notes. Before we go, I do want to remind you, we love listener suggested topics and gas. So if you have an idea, just go over to the AWARE partners website. Look at our contact page. We have three simple guidelines, we try to be super transparent and like growing portion, a very significant portion. I did a recording yesterday with somebody who was referred by a longtime listener, we love it. When you tell us who you want on the show, go take a look at our guidelines. If it feels like it's a fit, please send your ideas on it. So for now, I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care in these intense times. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our world.