180 | Canadian Centre for the Purpose of the Corporation with Brian Gallant
Our guest today on the pod is Brian Gallant. Brian is the CEO of the Candian Centre of the Purpose of the Corporation, a ground-breaking initiative to help Candian businesses and organizations as they work to redefine and strengthen both the scope of their purpose and the contributions they make more broadly to society.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Brian Gallant Awarepreneurs Interview
SPEAKERS: Brian Gallant, Paul Zelizer
Paul Zelizer 00:02
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of The aware printers podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode, I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection, someone who has market tested experience, and it's already transforming many lives. Before I introduce today's guests on our topic, I have one request. If you could go over to iTunes, or whatever app you're listening to this show on and do a rating and review, it helps tremendously. Thank you. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Brian Golan. And our topic today is the Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation. Brian is the CEO of the Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation, a groundbreaking initiative to help Canadian businesses and organizations as they work to redefine and strengthen both the scope of their purpose and the contributions they make more broadly to society. And when I was doing a little bit of research, you all know I love the word intersection, there was a line on the website that might help you get a sense of the terrain listeners of where we're going, it says Brian helps leaders navigate complex issues at the intersection of government politics, business law, social justice, media, and sustainability. So Brian, we're thrilled to have you on the show. I am thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me, Paul. So we're going to get into the big picture of the work. And we're super excited about it. Before we do that Brian, were called aware printers. And one of the ways we like to get to know somebody is to ask you about a wellness or an awareness practice that you personally use to resource yourself bringing your best self to this important work. But it's not very easy all the time, day after day, week after week, when you're very kind to ask I'm not asked that question very often. But it's something that's incredibly important to me. One of the things that I've noticed throughout my professional career is that the schedule in my calendar is just so important. And for many reasons, and it's something that helps me sort of navigate the flow of my workday, the flow of my energy. So what I have to do, which makes it a little less sort of romantic of an exercise, but but it's served me very well is I essentially schedule in what I call health breaks. So a health break to me is as simple as going, as I'm working from home over the last few months going to spend some time with my wife, if she can come off, off off of work for a bit. Health break could be to actually sit there just for a few moments and meditate, it could be yoga, again, with my partner, it could be to read some documents and some quotes and statements that I have that are sort of positive and inspire me to keep keep doing what I'm doing. It could be to sit there and just close my eyes and do some visualization exercises, I'd be lying to say that I always get to it. But by putting it in my calendar, I am usually pretty successful and making sure that I get some health breaks, as I call them in almost every day. And that allows me to sort of resource myself and be able to continue with with the work I'm doing. And the last thing which is very similar to a health break is is gym. So I exercise, running, doing some weights, I also plug that into my my calendar. And a few years back, I decided that I would treat those health breaks and treat those exercise breaks as important as as a meeting. And as important as anything else. Because when I wasn't doing that, I would find myself sort of saying, Okay, well that I can maybe cut down a bit or I can skip it today, every time that I had a little bit of overflow of work. So those are some of the things that I do and it's worked out well. It's always continuous improvement is important. So always looking to improve and strengthen my my approach, but it's been working for me so far. What a wonderful practice. Thanks for sharing that. So right if somebody was to start to get to know you and do a little search on the internet, right, one thing they find out pretty quickly is like you were pretty high level in the government. Tell us about that part of your work. Why you're absolutely right. And it's it's really an interesting sort of story for me to tell because now I'm sort of done with with government and politics, but at the age of 10 years old, my parents and ultimately my family went through some tough financial times.
Brian Gallant 04:27
Something that I think a lot of people listening would would have gone through at certain points in their lives, or they would know family members and friends that have gone through certain certain things that would be similar. And it just it really had an impact on me It started this this fire and desire to want to make a difference and to help families like mine that go through those tough times. So I say that because at the age of 10 I decided I wanted to make a difference that was going to be my my life purpose. At 15 years old I decided I wanted to be premier of New Brunswick For those that would be Americans listening in, that would be sort of the equivalent of a governor. So I decided this very specific role that I wanted to play in my province in my community. And at the age of 15, I started trying to make that happen. And then I became the premier of our province at the age of 32. I was very privileged to have many years in which I could try to make a difference, try to address inequalities, try to combat climate change, try to do what I can to make the communities that I love. Just a little bit better. So yeah, so I had a really great time doing it. I learned tons and met incredible people along the way.
Paul Zelizer 05:42
And anything you could say about like, what was one thing you learned in that role? Most of our listeners probably haven't had a high level position in the government before, like, like, what did you learn in that role?
Brian Gallant 05:54
Well, I learned a lot, I learned a lot about myself, as you can imagine, as well. One of the things that I that I certainly would want to pass on is it maybe this again, is in sort of as as inspirational as some of the other things that I learned. But I think it's important. Communications, communications is so important. And then at the start, I'm not sure I was, I was being as effective as I could be. And I know a lot of people listening will say, well, what's important in government and politics is his policies making a difference, it's, it's making sure that we understand what people are going through. And that's, and that's all true. But if you're not doing a good job of communicating it, you're not going to be very successful. And I had a tough time with that at the beginning. I'm, I'm a lawyer by trade. So I often probably talk too much. I like to tell people nuances, I which, which I think is the right approach for good public policy and trying to make a difference. But when you have to be in a clip of about 10 seconds, on TV that night, it's not the best approach. So I would maybe just pass on that, that thinking about how how you can improve your communication style, especially given the innovations over the last few years and the rise of social media. It's important because you got to tell your, tell your stories, you got to tell people what you're about. And you got to do so in a compelling way, because they have so much information and so many other things coming at them. So that would be one thing that I learned the importance of that. And again, it's not, not maybe as inspirational to talk about some of the other stuff. But I do think it's a practical point that, that I learned maybe through trial and error. So if I can pass it on to some of the people listening, hopefully, that'll make a difference in in the work that they're doing. I couldn't agree more, it's so important to be able to crisply and also effectively with poignancy, communicate what we're passionate about and why we're passionate about it. So people who listen to this podcast know I have my spiritual highlighter. So I'm highlighting what you just said, Brian. Thank you. Very good. Pay attention to that. Yeah. So from LA and being a premier and you know, progressive, like, let's kind of pull on the lever of government to help have an impact to like sustainable business and thinking about the whole business sectors ecosystem of Canada. We're gonna get into the specifics of how you're doing that. But talk to us about that transition. That's not exactly linear. Hmm, you're absolutely right. It was it was a really interesting exercise for me as I was leaving politics getting out of government. I, you can imagine for somebody who decided at 15 years old, exactly what desk they wanted to work at. It was a bit odd to sort of be leaving with no know I was talking more figuratively. But yeah, literally, it was a very nice desk. It was a desk that was that was passed on from premier premier since I think it was the late 1960s. So it was a very historic desk and you felt very privileged to be to be able to sit there. And yeah, it was a weird time for me because I had to decide what I wanted to do. And when I was 15, I'm really happy that I decided on something so specific, but there's no question that I made a little bit of an error now that I know what I know, I shouldn't have been so focused on the position to make that I wanted to make a difference. I should have just been focused on the difference. And the reason I say that is because look, it ended up working for me. So really no complaints and maybe maybe the differences is is moot. But I think for some maybe it could be an important difference. I 15, I should have decided I want to make a difference for families like mine by addressing inequalities by making sure world challenges like climate change are going to be done in a way to ensure good, high quality life for families like mine and communities that I care about and and that's going to be my life's passion and focus more on that and then look for the positions look for the opportunities that would come. So I probably would have still ended up wanting to be premier because I really do believe in government. I believe in politics. I believe it can. It can have a huge impact on people's lives. But at the same time, once I was done that, I was When confronted with the fact that I, I have focused since the age of 15, on the position to make the difference that I just talked about, so I had to realign everything. And then I said, Okay, well, I got to focus on the difference. So what else can I do? What? What other types of positions are out there? What other opportunities can I try to cease to have this impact? So I started to think, okay, I study business, at a concentration finance, or really like, I really like all that jazz, I have degrees in law. So I really obviously like that as well, and government and politics, public policy. So I tried to put all these things together. And every opportunity that I would look at, I usually would fall into one of those, maybe two or three of the buckets and, and then this this concept of helping businesses be purpose driven. helping businesses make sure that their impact on society is going to be a net positive one was just fascinating to me. And when I did the exercise, really seeing what kind of reminding myself of the impact I wanted to have, and also the types of vehicles that I was interested in. To have that impact. Once I landed on this subject I was I, without hesitation, I wanted to be a part of it. Because it brought in from a personal point of view abroad in law, it brings in, it brings in public policy, it brings in business. And of course, overall, it can very much have the impact that that I've wanted to have since I was 10 years old. So I just dove into it, I started, I started by meeting a bunch of CEOs and C suite executives to talk about the subject meet some people that are very thoughtful in the subject, meet some others that were maybe like me Learning about the subject. And then I with a firm navigator, we talked about doing something more and something a little more concrete and trying to advance this topic. And we came up with the idea of creating a supply Think Tank called the Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation. And through it, we really do hope we're going to be able to raise awareness around the concepts of, of surrounding the term, the purpose of the corporation and stakeholder capitalism, and really try to move the mark and of course, be there for organizations when they need support. And in really sort of redefining their purpose and living their purpose.
Paul Zelizer 12:14
Again, I want to pull out my spiritual highlighter. And you said something, Brian, I think it's so important. And listeners, if you can take one thing away, you might consider this one, you said, You know, I was focused on the position. And now I think I hear you saying I'm more attentive to the impact. Like if I really get clear, this is where I want to move the needle in terms of making the world a better place. And bringing all your creative resources to that or through time, the role that the world tags on your forehead or like if you go to a networking event, they remember when we used to do those pre COVID and go to networking events and what was written on your name tag, the role on that name tag isn't as important as the impact you're trying to have like, oh, the sooner we really get that, the easier and this changing economy like I just see people who who focus there have an easier time navigating change, and the ups and downs and Okay, I've learned what I can from here. And now I'm going to transition to there as opposed to the folks who get identified with a particular job or role. So I just thank you for saying that. And listeners take that one with you.
Brian Gallant 13:22
Well, thank thank you for highlighting that Paul and I, your eloquently said what I was was trying to say I mean, I probably still would have focused on becoming premier. But at the same time, just to put in context, why I think it was important, it would have been important to have a little bit more nuance. I mean, I could have been maybe the Minister of Finance in the same type of government and had a real great impact I could have maybe have still been in the realm of politics, but been a chief of staff and still had a huge impact. Or maybe along the way, I would have decided government wasn't for me anymore, I would still look for ways to have that impact through other types of opportunities. Or maybe I would have still wanted to be premier probably still would have wanted to. So that ended up being fine. But then when I was done with government, I was then I had this thrusted upon me where I had to decide what to do next. And then that reflection really came to be and if I could talk to 15 year old me I would have given them give them that advice.
Paul Zelizer 14:22
Thanks for sharing that Brian said just chronologically. It's a government doing a little research. I think he started maybe 2425 or 32, something like that. And like, when were you starting to say, Oh, well, I want to start looking at how to bring purpose and impact in business. And that would be in you know, start moving in that direction just chronologically When was that?
Brian Gallant 14:43
So about a year ago? And yeah, and it's interesting because because it's the it really is the vehicle now write it because because it's it's i hope i can i hope i i'm right in saying this that it's allowing me to have an impact. On the things that were made important to me at the age of 10, when when my family went through tough times, so it just has become a bit of a vehicle. And it's such a powerful vehicle. I mean, we have obviously many challenges in our province here in our country around the world. And in these challenges are, I think, having impacts on other challenges. They're interrelated. So from inequality to having an impact on our ability to fight climate change, and, and social cohesion, and the social environment and the trust, or maybe the mistrust that that's out there right now is having an impact on us being able to fight inequalities and, and this is all these challenges are interlinked and circular. And I really do believe businesses, organizations of all types, really, but businesses, especially have a role to play in addressing these major societal challenges. So the thought of being able to help contribute to that even just a little bit, is, is exciting to me, I feel very lucky to be in a position to try to make that type of difference in this type of way. And the center has a wonderful team of people. And I'm really excited about the work we're doing. And hopefully, it'll have a bit of an impact.
Paul Zelizer 16:17
So we're gonna get to like, how does this work in terms of moving the needle on inequality and climate change and social cohesion and all of that, but just like, Brian, let's just start with the beginning. What the heck is the think tank focused on the purpose of the corporation?
Brian Gallant 16:33
Fair enough. So the purpose of the corporation is a term that embodies quite a bit, and really what what it's looking at is it and people will, obviously, and I don't blame them gravitate to the idea that, okay, you're trying to help corporations find their purpose. Okay, I get it. But but it's really broader than that. The conversation around being a purpose driven organization, about focusing on your stakeholders, has really sort of centered around the corporation. There's a lot of people that would opine as to why that's happened, I have a few hypothesis, I think that corporations are probably the best example of an entity that through its structure through the way that we've treated it, the, the way that we have sort of defined it over the last few decades, is really sort of honed in on elements of profit of elements of helping investors and shareholders and the owners. And, and really, I mean, all of that, obviously makes sense on paper, but practically speaking on the impact that it's having on our society, this the narrowness of the, the definition of the purpose of the corporation of the last few decades, often attributed to Friedman, the sort of Chicago school of thought, has really had a bit of not a bit of major impact on the world, and on the challenges that we that we are facing. Others would opine and I agree with all of these points, by the way, but others would say, Well, a lot of people are focused on corporations, because they're the ones that have the largest impact, which I also agree with, and they can have a large impact as corporations are often global entities, they, they have thousands of employees, they have millions, if not more dollars that they're investing in can have a huge impact. And of course, the the argument could be made sort of in two ways that they can be positive contributors, or some would argue there, there may be a net negative contributor to some of the challenges that are facing society at the moment. So if we can get corporations to be more purpose driven, meaning that they're focused on other stakeholders, they're focused on other interests, like the environment, they're focused on other interests, like combat and climate change and inequities, discrimination, things of that order, then then we can really have an impact on, on on overcoming these global challenges. So that's a bit of what what is embodied in the purpose of the corporation. But really, all the things that I just mentioned, applies to pretty much any business. And it's our view that the expectations are really increasing towards the business community, in Canada, in the US, really in the Western world, probably across the globe. And the expectations are changing what people want from businesses is not the typical, you go create jobs, help the economy grow, create innovation, and products and services that are important, and that help our quality of life. People still want businesses to do that. But they also want them to contribute now a lot more positively to society, in general, and that applies to other organizations as well. So all that to say the purpose of the corporation, being being a term that embodies all that is why we chose it to be a part of the name. It's a bit like you could have sort of, you know, Home Hardware doesn't mean that you only go there because you're buying something to to work on your home. It could be something else. So really, it's just something that embodies the the the the spirits, the principles and concepts that we're trying to push forward in the business community and with all organizations in our country.
Paul Zelizer 20:08
Thanks for that background, right. And we're gonna get into some of the specific services and some of the ways you work in just a minute. But before we do that, Brian, one of the questions we get asked a lot is like people wanting to understand just kind of the structure. So like, the Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation is a part of are under the umbrella of this company called navigator, like, what did that company already exist? And like, what's the relationship between Brian the center and the organization or the company that holds it or umbrellas it now make you?
Brian Gallant 20:41
Well, you're very right to point to this. So navigator is a public affairs firm. It is national firm in Canada. And it is a business in which has a few operations, and one of them is indeed the Canadian Centre for the purpose of the corporation. And it's really interesting, because as you can imagine, a firm like navigator, I'm sure many other professional service firms as well, have been I think for for quite some time now for months, if not, maybe a few years, sensing that something's happening to the business community, sensing that something's happening in terms of organizations, and the expectations that the public would be thrusting upon them. Because as you can imagine, professional service firms often will have organizations knock on their door, when there's a bit of a challenge, there's maybe an opportunity, but often it seems to be when there's challenges and I think navigator and I think again, many other professional service firms have been feeling something's happening in expectations are really having a some could argue negative, but I would really argue the the pressure that's being put on can have a positive impact. And it's being felt by think many. So navigator saw this opportunity saw this challenge and want to move forward and help organizations figure this stuff out. So we worked on creating the center. And then we have a wonderful panel of experts that are doing a bunch of other really cool things and just different peoples with different backgrounds and perspectives from different regions of the of the country. And is really, because this is such a holistic challenge that we need that type of thought leadership coming from different industries, different perspectives, if we're going to help organizations really figure this stuff out, it really is something that brings in so much together at the same time. And I want to be for those listening, I want to be really clear, we at the center. And I think, again, other professional service firms would be recognizing this as well. We understand businesses have all these expectations coming at them. But it's not displacing the old expectations. It's just piling on the ones that they had before. So it's not easy right now to be a business leader. You're sort of in this in this economic system, that is transitioning, maybe slowly, there's pressure from the public for it to go faster. You have stakeholders, your employees, your customers, your supply chains, your governments, you have all these, these stakeholders applying pressure for things to change and things to happen. So it's not easy. And I think a lot of people are trying to figure it out. And we hope that we're going to be able to assist them in doing so.
Paul Zelizer 23:22
And one of the experts you have is how we came to be doing this interview a big shout out to Katherine bell. He's one of your experts, the author of the awaken company, and we did an episode with Katherine earlier, so I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But thanks, Catherine, for connecting
Brian Gallant 23:36
fans. Yeah, fans, fantastic person. And anybody that's listening should definitely take the time to listen to Katherine. I. If I'm having a bad week, I just have to set up a meeting with her and I'm all jazzed up again.
Paul Zelizer 23:46
Right? She's just Yes. Yeah. So warm. So anyway. So let's do that. Let's take a quick break here. word from our sponsor, we come back want to get into a little more of the granular details of how you use work. Do you have a business that's about making a positive impact, and you want to grow, impact more people and you also want it to take care of you and your family? You want the income and the revenue to live a good life? If you do, one of the things I've been recommending more and more is podcasting. And why is that? Well, Brian just mentioned, you know, this messaging you have like 10 seconds on social media. One of the beautiful things about podcasting is it's a deep dive format. The average podcast episode is 43 minutes long. You can do deep dives, you can touch on nuances and whether you're a guest like Brian is today, or the host of a podcast, I happen to be sitting in that seat today. podcast listeners, they love new ideas. They're early adaptors, if you want to use a technical term for it, they tend to be leaders in their social circles. So people look to them for new ideas and they go to podcasts specifically looking for innovations and new ideas and to learn about topics in more depth. They tend to make more money and they tend to be Just thought leaders in the ecosystems that they live in work. So if you're thinking, Wow, that sounds pretty cool, and you'd like to learn how to do that, where printers has a podcast success team will show you how you can use podcasting in such a way that you really can get your message out there in a relational deep dive not having to truncate everything to a 13 word meme or a 12 second video, and be able to share what you're doing in both deep and effective ways. If you'd like to learn more, go to aware partners.com forward slash podcast dash six hours, and go check it out. If you have any questions, I'd love to hear from you. I'll put a link in the show notes. And thank you for everybody who's in the podcast success team perhaps sponsoring this podcast. So Brian, talk to us a little bit, there's a couple of buckets that you do at the Center for the purpose of Corporation. One of those things is y'all do research and you did a really big research survey study of over 3000 people to kind of get a sense of like, what are people thinking what's on their mind about purpose? And values driven business? Like What Did you find out in that research study.
Brian Gallant 26:14
But you're you're very kind to ask because we're very proud of the work that we were able to do and and fascinated by the results. So we we had a wonderful research team. So if they're listening, big thank you to them, because they they worked for quite some time to make sure that we could get all this interesting data. So we, as you mentioned, spoke to 3000 Canadians, we had the chance to hear from them understand what they see as the challenges facing the world understand their expectations, Visa v the business community, what they think of the economic system right now their sentiments, towards so many important things that we believe will help us assist businesses and organizations as they seek to be more purpose driven and work with their stakeholders. So a few fascinating things that that we learned. So first off Canadians, I think very much like other people that would be listening from other countries are very concerned about inequalities, very concerned about inequities. So when asked and unaided meaning that no options were given to the to the respondents, 50% of Canadians mentioned, what we've put under a bucket of that we entitled fairness, so inequalities in wealth inequalities and income inequities and treatment discrimination. So, so 50% of Canadians name that as the, the number one challenge facing the world today, other than the pandemic, by the way, because we asked them to parse that out, because it was such an acute challenge during the survey. And then the second one, which really, I think is sort of in line with the other two that make up the bucket of fairness was the environment slash climate change. So Canadians are very worried about these, these three, three challenges. And when we do a deeper dive and ask them their level of concern, for these challenges, it is very high, the two thirds of Canadians would rank these three challenges in sort of the in the top echelon of issues that would be keeping them up at night. What's really interesting is that when we find ourselves in the middle of a global health pandemic, and at the time where there's very much an uncertain economic outlook, the economy, and health, which usually are pretty top of mine in Canada, we're number four, and number six. So it's really I think, again, accentuating the fact that inequalities, inequities in the environment, are really top of mind for Canadians. And then the other the other piece that we saw is when we were asking Canadians about what they would like to see from businesses, and what they what their sentiments are towards businesses in the country. 81% of Canadians, which is a huge number, really do value what businesses and corporations can do and playing a role in economic development, creating jobs, fostering innovation, and providing essential goods and services. But at the same time, only 31% believe that Canadian businesses and corporations are concerned with their impact on society. And even further, we see that only that they believe Canadian businesses and corporations who treat contribute more to the betterment of society. 78% agreed with that. So when you look at those numbers, it was really interesting, because I think what it's telling us is Canadians recognize and I would argue that it would be very similar to Americans recognize that businesses play a very important economic role. But they're not playing enough of a role in combating other challenges that are even more top of mind in Canada, such as inequalities, climate change. And in equities. So if I were a business leader listening to that, I would say to myself, okay, this is not going to be easy, because we have the same expectations On the economic front. But clearly Canadians are stakeholders that are ultimately going to be our customers or employees and play other roles and helping our organization be successful. They expect more from us. So we got to figure this out. And it's not easy. And again, we certainly hope that our center will be able to help them assist, assist them and help them be able to figure out what their purpose should be in terms of societal impact, and, of course, how to live that purpose.
Paul Zelizer 30:37
So much there, Brian, so I'm going to ask you that. I'm known for being pretty direct. So I'm going to ask you the green lipstick on a pig question. And basically, when you say that 31%, you know, believe believe that businesses are not the majority people in that study said businesses could be doing more. That's right, thank you business, but like the large majority, and Can you talk to us a little bit about a phenomenon that a lot of our community talks about? Where is people put green lipstick on a pig and say, Look, we're a sustainable business? How can we, you know, be compassionate, that business has so much, you know, like, you're saying business leaders, now you're supposed to like pay attention to profit and good leadership and navigating through changes in the economy like automation and AI and the global economy. And now, you're also supposed to be doing work that is addressing inequality and climate change and environment like that's a lot. And can we also just acknowledge that, particularly for millennials, and people in the younger age of the age spectrum, like these values are like making their purchasing choices like it just keeps going every every generation, every, you know, two or three years, the number jumps by significant number of percentage points, they won't buy your stuff. Right? If you're not somehow seen as a valued company, and large companies pay attention to things like that what people are buying and not buying. And sometimes the tendency is, well, let's just put green lipstick on what we already have and call it sustainable. Can you talk about that phenomenon? Mm hmm. Well,
Brian Gallant 32:24
first comment is, you're absolutely right. I mean, there's a lot of that happening. And, and, and some of it will, will be successful, which is unfortunate, of course, but but some of it may work. But But I would argue that in the long term, it won't. And why I think that is because one of the things that we have heard from business leaders, is that they are very cognizant of the fact that if they put a put forward an effort, or talk about an effort to be more purpose driven, whether that's on their impact on society, or the environment, that if it's not authentic, they are going to be in big trouble. So although I think what you said is true, and I think that there are a lot of organizations that can get away with it, it is a very risky approach to this. Because if you get caught for the lack of lack of a better word, of embellishing your efforts and your impact on things that people care about, and the environment, as the example you use is something Canadians certainly care deeply about, and are concerned about, it will have a huge backlash. So you may be okay, and it may work. And it may help you balance all of these pressures and expectations in the short term, while you get away with it. But if ever, some could argue when you are found to not be doing something in an authentic way or an insincere way, or you're embellishing your contributions to a certain topic deemed important by the public. It could be game over for you. And I would I would really point to business leaders, that there are statistics that demonstrate that they better take this seriously. So for example, Canadians are very open to having government intervene in forcing businesses to step up on these challenges. The studies just to give you the study shows, just to give you a few statistics, some very interesting data. So Canadians believe that governments in Canada need to get tougher with Canadian businesses and corporations through laws, regulations and taxes. If we're going to overcome climate change, 69% of Canadians agree with that 66% agree with the same concept. But with regards the inequalities. So there's a huge appetite with the public to have government intervene. So if I'm a business leader, if I'm talking to a business leader, you have to be aware of the fact that if the business community doesn't step up proactively, the public is going to apply pressuring governments to really force you to get there. And the other aspect is going back to this idea, that issue, I say get caught is probably, again, the wrong term. But just for the sake of the point, if you get caught being authentic with the efforts that you're putting forward on these important things, I think that there's going to be other types of impacts. Our studies show that people really want. And as you mentioned, young people, is certainly the case as well, to work for a business and an organization that they believe is adhering to a stakeholder definition, meaning that they really are trying to have a positive impact on all of the organization stakeholders, not just create profits, for shareholders, owners or investors. So as that becomes increasingly more the case, in the years to come, a business that gets caught, again, for the lack of a better term, will find themselves in a position that will be very difficult for them to recruit, retain employees, and even have their their workforce be productive. And that comes with a big cost, as we know.
Brian Gallant 36:15
Also, I think that people this is my personal opinion, the research doesn't necessarily demonstrate this too much into the future. But I think more and more people are also going to start to really, through their purchase choices, express their support, or their frustration visa v. Businesses is they are stepping up in an authentic way or not.
Paul Zelizer 36:38
So one of the things you all offer at the Center for the purpose of corporation is an assessment tool, like you're starting to bring things forth, like here's the research, that's one of the things you do. But another thing you offers an assessment tool to kind of give leaders a sense, like, where are we and what are some of the things we might be doing well, and where are some places we could put some more attention talk about that tool?
Brian Gallant 36:59
Well, we really Yeah, exactly. We really hope to help businesses understand the concepts within the term, the purpose of the corporation, how to be a purpose driven organization. And a part of that concept, a very important part is really being there for your stakeholders. So one of the things that we have, we have tried to do is allow organizations to get a sense of where they're at with our stakeholders. So we have an assessment tool that can help talk to in organizations, employees, customers, supply chains, they're there, the public at large, if they would like to understand what all of these stakeholders think the organization is doing, and in the realms of the concepts of the purpose of the corporation. So we would take a list of 26 attributes that can influence the public's purchase choices, their choices with regards to who they want to work for, and attributes that would really help define in the eyes of the public and stakeholders, how the organization is doing on the concepts of the purpose of the corporation. And then this allows us to have a bit of a diagnostic using what are the most important factors of the stakeholders to allow the business to see, here's how people think you're doing here's how your stakeholders believe you are doing on all of these important attributes, and maybe some that they deem not important you are doing well, which which is obviously something that maybe you should be aware of, and when it goes to communication, maybe not focus so much on here are things that are important that you're not doing well. And we would, we would think that we as an organization, you would want to be able to think through how you can focus on improving that here are things that you are doing well that are important. And that would be probably something you want to focus on in communications, because you're seem to be really moving the needle on these attributes and really making a difference. And that would be something you may want to continuously communicate with your your stakeholder. So this assessment tool really does give us a diagnostic and gives us a window into how they are doing, how an organization is doing visibie its stakeholders.
Paul Zelizer 39:19
And again, I'll put links if you're listening and say, Wait, I want to see that I'll put links in the show notes. So Brian, this is called the Canadian center, right, the Canadian doing something on the scale of an entire country's economy and business ecosystem. It's a little mind boggling and you know, I get to talk to people doing cool stuff like every day, right? But that's that's a scale and scope that, you know, most of our listeners might not have a lot of embodied experience like when you started to think about how to bring conversations about fairness, the environment, some of these other areas. Use to an entire country's economy. And because we live in a global economy, like you even see the threads as they go out beyond Canada, like how do you think about that kind of scale and scope and turning a ship that big when, you know, you've all are a giant company, you don't have 100,000 employees. You're, you're the great team of experts, and Brian and a couple other people and you leverage, you know, navigators resources, to the extent they can is a pretty small team thinking around a really big ship, how do you do that skillfully.
Brian Gallant 40:37
It's not easy, for sure. But one of the things that I'm really lucky to have is a team that is really national in scope, and why that makes a difference. And these are all very accomplished individuals. And I'm just learning so much from all of them. And it's just awesome to be working with them. One of the things that that does, it allows us to understand the different regions, different sectors, different perspectives of a very fast country. And we would not be able to do the work that we're doing if it weren't for the incredible backbone of navigator as well, which has offices in different parts of the country. And, and with all of that, that that collection of people and perspectives and backgrounds and skill sets, we really are, I think able to tailor our approach to an organization, the challenges and opportunities that the organization would have before it. But but it's it's not easy. And one of the things that we believe is going to be important is for the business community, just to be aware of this, just be aware of the topic, be aware of the expectations, be aware of the pressures, they are definitely feeling me increased pressure and expectations. But I'm not sure that they know that it's really coming from this topic of purpose driven organizations, which makes it really tough on them, I would assume, right? Because they would find themselves saying I have all this stuff coming at me, I'm being pulled in all these different directions. Yes, all these stakeholders are important. And yes, I want my impact on the environment, or organizations impacting your environment to be a positive one. I but I don't know what to do. But so when you have in your mind, dozens of things coming at you, it's tough. framing it into what you have this one thing coming at you with all these tentacles with all these different elements, I really do think we'll we'll make it a bit easier. So I say all this because a challenge that we definitely have is, as you mentioned, was being the the the vast country that we are on is really trying to get the business community Just be aware of what this is, be aware that it is all kind of stemming from this new conversation about what is the new role of business in society? What are the expectations of the public and, and in the world, frankly, has on different types of organizations. So if we can play a role there, I think already just doing that could could help move the needle a little bit. And then of course, that next step is being there for an organization that needs support, once they sort of grapple with these challenges and say, Okay, this is what it's this is what's happening, people are, are trying to shift our role in society, people don't want our organization to just focus on providing them employment, and trying to innovate on products and services, they, they want us to do more than that. So we got to figure that out. And, and again, if we can raise that awareness and be there for them to help them, I'd like to think that although we in the grand scheme of things might be a bit small, we I think can have a bit of an impact.
Paul Zelizer 43:49
So if you were going to give specific suggestions to two people, Brian, I'm going to tell you who those two people are, what would you say to these two folks? One is a business leader who think about them as an intrapreneur. Right? They they're, they're smart. They they're they want change, they're want positive impact their hearts in the right place in terms of their values and their purpose. And they're already in the driver's seat of a pretty big boat, or at least they're, you know, sitting around the table who drives but the ship hasn't yet fully committed to this, right? They are personally but there's a difference between what they're seeing the best version of that company in terms of purpose and values and what's like happening right now on the ground and they want to they want to move that, you know, what would you say to that person number one, let me stop and pause there. What are your suggestions for that specific leader?
Brian Gallant 44:47
So with what you gave me these obviously there can be some nuances in that type of scenario. But what you gave me if this is sort of a believer, somebody that really does think that it's important to be purpose driven that that having an impact Is something positive impact is something an organization should be very concerned about? What I would say is this believing is the first step. So I would congratulate them on that. Because if you're going to convince your organization, and all the stakeholders within the organization and external to the organization, you have to believe it, it has to be authentic. Because if it's not, this isn't really just specific to purpose. This is this is sort of leadership one on one, if you if you don't believe it, you're not going to really, you're not going to be able to lead a group to believe it. So that's great. So the second thing I would say is you get to equip yourself with the arguments, and the the statistics and the the thought leadership that's going to help you convince others as well. Because I really think that the topic is one in which you can really bring people emotionally to want to be purpose driven. It feels good to talk about we as an organization, maybe we make widgets, but really, at the end of the day, we're improving the lives of the people in our communities. And we're we're strengthening our social fabric and addressing inequality that will spark people to have this emotional connection to want to be purpose driven. But then there's going to be practical questions as well, how is it that we're doing that if we have these widgets? And, and how is it that, that we're making widgets, and we have to make profits by the next quarter, and you're telling me that we also are trying to care about all these other things like, I don't know, if I believe you. And I don't know if we can do that. And I don't know, if the system will allow us, I don't know if the pressures will allow us. So you have to equip yourself with the knowledge I think, to convince people. So I think the emotion part will, should be easy enough. So you need some logic to follow that emotion, emotional argument. And the logic is quite simple. I mean, studies show that businesses that are focused on a lot of people would peg this as ESG sort of the environment, social and governance impacts and procedures that they have, will perform better in the long term. There are studies that show that those that think about their stakeholders, instead of just thinking about perhaps profits, and or shareholders, owners, investors will perform long better in the long term. Now, you have to also acknowledge and be ready and think this through and, and and work with, with the change management 101 elements and, and, and, and celebrate when you have little wins and recognize that there's going to be sometimes you take two steps forward, and then maybe a step back and and recognize that there'll be still these short term pressures. And it's not easy for the team and be there to support them and, and reach out to centers like ours, and people like us that are passionate about this to help you walk this walk through this stuff. But but that's really important. And I think I think we have a system economic system that is not geared towards necessarily encouraging purpose driven organizations. So you have to recognize that you have to have, you have to be equipped with the arguments as to why you can still navigate within the economic system like that, and even be six even maybe more successful, which studies would show is is often very much the case. And then the last thing is, depending on the situation you're in depending what type of organization you lead, depending on how much you can you can dedicate to this, but try to have a more macro impact as well. Going back to my point, the system is definitely set up to be more short term focused, it's definitely set up to be focused on growth and to be focused on profit generation. So we need some community leaders, we need business leaders, we need leaders from all sectors, informing themselves about this topic, seeing what role they can play in trying to shift the system. And there's an appetite for Canadians, interestingly, want to see changes to capitalism. And studies would show surveys would show that it's the same thing in the US. So in Canada, our survey demonstrated that 55% of Canadians want capitalism to be more equitable, inclusive and sustainable. 17% say, you know, rip up capitalism is not working and replace it. And only 28% say everything, you know, sure there's some kinks, but everything is going relatively well and capitalism should just stay the same. So 55% of Canadians want to see a modernization of our economic system. So I would say to the leader that you described that they should try to play a role from a macro level of trying to create that new economic system is the right thing to do. I think it's something that the public wants. And I think ultimately organizations and business leaders attached to organizations that are helping create that new reality will see their bottom lines and see the performance And so their organization's do all that much better.
Paul Zelizer 50:04
Bit upon leader who we're talking about here, Brian and his whole team of experts, that's literally why they exist. So go seek them out, go learn from my dad, that part. You're very good. person number two, Brad, doing some research on our website yesterday and you know, a larger piece of research, social entrepreneurship and sustainable businesses, one of the fastest growing majors of college campuses around the world. And I was doing some research on our website and you know, broken down by visitors by age, and the biggest age demographics of who's listening to the aware printer, or at least who's coming to our website is what I was looking at yesterday, is 18 to 24 and 25 to 34. So young people, yes, we're so glad you're here. Welcome. And thank you. And we love our young listeners who have, you know, incredibly innovative ideas. And they want to, you know, roll up their sleeves and be involved in these big complicated conversations. And yet, you know, they haven't been premiere. Maybe they're not a lawyer, like they're there earlier in their professional journey with big dreams, but they don't yet have a lot of experience or a big network. And how would you invite somebody who's in that space to think about how they can get into a position of leadership and contribute to some of these big complicated, nuanced conversation?
Brian Gallant 51:34
That's a it's an interesting, interesting question. Because I have to start with something that may or may not be very directly to what you what you asked, but I think it's important, it goes a little bit to the start of our conversation, I think, to a younger person, like you described, that is trying to find a way to be a leader in this thought space or leader, when it comes to having an impact in this in this space, I would say, first off, decide what you want to do with your life. And it sounds so. So maybe, maybe sort of grandiose and not very practical, but it but it's true, like I find in life when you can decide what you want. Decisions become all that much easier. And I think deciding what type of impact you want to have on the world is important. It's it's an exercise everybody should try to do and everybody's answer will be somewhat different. And that's normal. And frankly, it's really good actually, because we need different types of perspectives and different approaches and different people doing things a little differently to make an impact. And then the second thing would be okay, that's the impact you want to have and learning from my mistakes when I was 15 years old, as we chatted about what vehicles would you be, would you be interested in using to try to make that difference? And what I mean by vehicle is what type of profession what type of volunteer work, what type of of activity are you going to do to try to have that impact. And one thing that people often say, they say, follow your passion, right. And I like that, and I believe in that. But I think it's it's, it's it's incomplete to say follow your passion, follow you follow passion, yes. But also find something that you are good at, or that you like, or even love, so you can get good at or even get better at. And, and then find something that the world needs, find something that you can also build a career around. And if you haven't those sort of elements in what you'll end up doing, you're going to be very fulfilled, and you'll also be very good at it, you'll you'll have that much more opportunity to make an impact. So I know it's a really sort of, kind of high level philosophical part of the answer. But I think it's important because too often people are like, Well, yeah, like, okay, he was on the podcast, and I sort of liked his crew. So I'll do the same thing that he did. But But everybody's path is going to be different. And and it should be different, because you want to have a different impact. And your your vehicle will be different than what you're passionate about and what you think you're good at or what you would like to be good at and and what you think the world needs, I mean, which is informed by your lived experiences and your perspective, which is important again, because you need that diversity of, of willingness to make an impact and different types of impacts. So that would be the first part of the question. The next part, I would say, once you sort of decide the impact you want to have and potentially the vehicles in which to have that impact, then I would say, Okay, I need to like a business like an organization. I need to be purpose driven. And I need to make decisions that are going to help me make that impact and help me build the skill sets. gain the experience that I need to be able to take on an opportunity that will be a vehicle for that impact, and I need to build the skill set that will be needed for me to be good at doing whatever it is I need to do in that view. Call to have that impact. People say, going back to passion people say follow your passion. And I think a lot of people interpret that as Oh, yeah, cuz if I, if I follow my passion, I'm gonna love everything I do. Every minute that I work, I'm gonna love
Paul Zelizer 55:14
the puppies and unicorns every day, right. And it's, and it's absolutely wrong to
Brian Gallant 55:21
think that and there's an argument to be made, that it's actually the contrary, you'll end up doing stuff that's tougher, because you're passionate. So because you're passionate, you'll be willing to do stuff that's hard, you'll be you'll be willing to take on risks, you'll be willing to put in the work to learn what you need to learn, you'll, you'll do things that are really tough, because you're passionate, if you're not passionate, putting in the work, putting in the hours putting in the time, the the the ability to say if I do this for the next few hours, or the next few years, whatever the case may be, it won't be fun, but but you know, down the road, I'll be able to do it. If you have passion, you will. But if you don't, you won't, you won't want to put that in order. If you do, you'll be miserable. So really, passion is a fuel that gets you through the really tough times. And if you're actually passionate about it, you'll be willing to do that and get through those tough times. So all that to say, I know my advice might be a little sort of out there. But But I really believe in this, I think it's important for anybody. Because again, for their their self fulfillment, their their quality of life, I think it'll make a big impact. But also, they'll be following a passion getting good at it having the right vehicles, and they'll have all that much more of an impact. So I know you would have the ability of, of making the world a better place. And then the last thing I'll say, which is because I want to give one practical part of my answer is is living your purpose is important, because you can have an impact in a lot of different ways. And some of it may seem miniscule. But if we all do it, it's the ripple effect. If you all do it, it can make a difference. So then I would argue, work for organizations that are trying to have the impact you want to have and that are sincere about it going to our conversation while ago that are authentic in their efforts to make a difference and address some of the challenges that you think are important in your consumer choices in your purchase choices. Try to look for organizations and businesses that you want to support because they're trying to have the positive impact that you want to see in the world. And that's that's hard work. And it's not always easy. And I don't live it perfectly either. There's no question. But I try and, and we try to live our purpose and our decisions as much as we can. And I think when you do that you really get to be centered, you feel good about your daily decisions, in the impact you're having on the world around you.
Paul Zelizer 57:51
I love your advice, Fryman, I might just had his, if it's always easy, and it's always rainbows and unicorns, then you're probably not doing the work. We're facing some really hard things right now. And it's the values and purpose that allows us, for me anyway, it was lets me show up day after day, week after week, and be in some really hard conversations or stretch into like, I didn't know anything about starting a podcast. But I knew that I wanted to find people and doing incredible work and amplify it. So I learned how to do podcasts and how to work through all that like, but I'm not a techie. And I don't know how to do this. And I don't know how to edit sound. And I don't even know what they're talking about. Right? So those moments of values and being clear about the purpose and the impact you want to have help us through those hard times. Please don't be one of those folks that says if you're having a non puppy and unicorn moment that you must be doing something wrong. No, you're probably doing the work. So just That's
Brian Gallant 58:48
exactly right. And you're you're talking Paul to somebody who decided at 15 years old that they wanted to be premier of New Brunswick. And I was very focused on on doing that. And I was so passionate because I believe in public service. I believe in government, I wanted to have that impact that we've been talking about. And there were parts of it that were so hard. It was so hard. And and as I'm sure everyone listening knows there's lots of negativity in politics, there's lots of negativity when, when you're trying to get trying to make a difference and get things done. So it was hard. And it was only the it was only because I had that passion that I was able to go through it. And politics and public policy and government may not be for everyone. Well, I know it's not for everyone. Because if you're not very much a passionate, passionate towards these things when you go through that you won't be able to go through and that's normal. Because if I were taking another vehicle that I'm not passionate about, and I went through the same types of difficulties, I wouldn't be able to do it. So it's to your point, Paul is really important to put in perspective that when you're following your passion, it's actually the opposite. You're going to have probably tougher times but you're going to go through through them, and you'll go through them willingly, but doesn't mean you won't have your moments, but you're going to go through them. Because you know, at the end of the day, the the impact and the difference you can make will be worth it because you're passionate about it.
Paul Zelizer 1:00:13
Brian, I'm really enjoying this conversation, I could hang out and talk to you all day. But I wouldn't do that to you. And I wouldn't do that to our listeners. If there was one thing you're hoping we were going to get to in this interview, we haven't talked about yet, or there is something you want to leave our listeners with a suggestion on, you know, taking action or a final thought, as we wind this conversation to a close, what would that be?
Brian Gallant 1:00:38
I think I would underline that there are so many good people in positions, jobs, are responsible for certain tasks that could leave the public to think they aren't good people. And that would be another lesson. Going back to one of your questions earlier on, about things that I learned when I was in government. That would be another one. There are really good people in politics, from all political parties. There are really good people that are business leaders. And I'll just stop with those two examples. But there are certainly others. And those two groups that I just mentioned, amongst the others, that could be mentioned, there are some bad apples like any other profession. So I only raised this because I think it's important in this conversation, when we're trying to help organizations, including businesses and corporations be more purpose driven, that we recognize there's lots of good people that have all these pressures, and all these things that they're trying to balance. And at the end of the day, the vast majority of them want to have a positive impact on the world, they want to have a positive impact on their communities, they want to do things that are going to help their families and friends and people in their countries and their regions live. Good, happy lives. So I think that's important to underline, because a lot of the things that that you could talk about in this conversation could lead you to believe that in some way, we're people are trying to blame business leaders or with the past life that I had blamed politicians and people in government. And I don't think that's going to help us move the needle, I think we have to be we have to keep people accountable. I think that's okay, I think we have to have robust debate, I think that's not only okay needs, both of those things need to be need to be done and are important. But we have to do it in a way that's respectful, recognizing that the vast majority of people want to have a positive impact. And sometimes the system makes it tougher for them. So we have to help them, we have to help figure out how we can get them as an organization or as an individual to do better and to do what they would like to do in terms of the impact on their communities and society. And also helping change the system so that we can all have this, this impact that we'd like to see and leave the world in a better place for the next generations. Brian, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Brian Gallant 1:03:11
Thank you. And hopefully we'll be able to do it again in the near future.
Paul Zelizer 1:03:14
I'd love this conversation. Yeah, let's stay in touch. So that's all the time we have for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Before we go a reminder, we do episodes twice a week. And we love listener suggested topics and guests, for instance, that's how Brian got here. So if you have a suggestion, please go to the web printers website, go to our contact page. We have our guidelines there of what we're looking for. And please make a suggestion. For now I just want to say thank you so much for listening, please take really good care of these are very intense time. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our world.