160 | Divine Confidence & Nonconformist Spirituality with Kat Kim
Our guest today on the pod is Kat Kim. Kat is a changemakers who works the Spiritual Nonconformist, the misfit and the misunderstood. For over 10 years, she's applied what she's learned about behavorial change and spiritual transformation to help her clients create radical, nonconformist change in their lives.
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SPEAKERS
Paul Zelizer, Kat Kim
Paul Zelizer 00:01
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of The aware partners podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who has market test that experience and is already transforming many lives. Before I introduce today's guests and our topic, I have one request. If you could go over to iTunes or whatever app you're listening to the show on and do a rating and review it helps tremendously. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to my friend and colleague Kat Kim. Our topic today is divine competence and nonconformist spirituality, cat as a change maker, who works with the spiritual nonconformist, the misfit, and the misunderstood for over 10 years, she's applied what she's learned about behavioral change and spiritual transformation to help her clients create radical, non conformist change in their lives. Cat Welcome to the show. I am so excited to be here, Paul, thanks for having me. No, I should say this is like a little embarrassing, but in the reveal department, there is only one time ever that I've recorded an episode. And it just like disappeared. And it was this cat and I was a while back. And since then you've rebranded and your work feels so much onpoint and really crisp. Not that it was bad before, but you are on fire now. So I'm really embarrassed that I lost it. But I'm actually not sorry that I lost it. So deep apology. But also, I'm really glad you're here now, with this expression of your work that I can't wait to share with our listeners get it all works in divine timing, and I trust it all. So I'm so glad that you lost it. I'm so glad to be here. It just means that I get to be with you twice doing this. talk another time. Yeah, so listeners I've had for quite a few years. And in particular, I can't wait to tell you about some of the work she's doing combining spiritualities and social change. Before we get to that cat were called to wear printers. And one of the ways we like to get to know somebody is to ask you about a wellness or an awareness practice that you personally use to bring your best self your resilience of this really powerful self to the work day after day, week after week. Oh, yes. 100% hands down prayer.
Kat Kim 02:31
And it's not the type of prayer where I'm praying and asking to a God that is white, and male, and up in heaven, standing with the staff and transgressed, like, punishing me for my transgressions and asking from a place of not having that's not the prayer I'm talking about. I practice what we call affirmative prayer. So it's a very specific type of prayer, where I am affirming, I am affirming the presence of God within me, not outside of me, right, I am affirming the presence of God within me, and I am affirming the power, the divinity, the beauty, the the the abundance that already is in with within me and that I have access to because I am an expression of God itself. That's the type of prayer that I practice. And there are times when I because of my past conditioning and because of just trauma that I've been through that I can't affirm it for myself. So what I do after that is I reach out to my network of licensed spiritual practitioners who have studied this and who have gone deep in their spiritual practice. And I asked them to pray for me and it's just absolutely magical. Because when they can know something for me when I can't know it, it's almost like delegating. It's like delegating to this to my prayer posse. You know, I can't affirm this for myself. Can you affirm it for me? And it? It works like magic?
Paul Zelizer 04:01
I don't think I've ever wanted to say amin before and somebody has been like, what else do I mean, right? The nice Jewish boy me is like once I get out of my seat, yeah, nice. So this work of divine confidence and nonconformist spirituality and unpacking consumer spirituality, which is something we're going to talk about in a bit. Like, where did that like if you were to put a pin on the map of cat Kim's journey, like something happened at a certain point and a certain place in your journey that kind of, you know, bent the arc of your trajectory to this work wherever that point be?
Kat Kim 04:38
Yeah, there's two actually. And the first one, you know, there's a little bit of backstory around and I'll go through it very quickly. I grew up in a very abusive environment. When I was young, my mother began feeding me diet pills when I was six years old. So I really grew up with this sense of not being good enough not being wanted being alone. ugly and fat, all by the time I was in second grade. And so I carry these beliefs about myself all throughout my life. And I started rebelling at a really young age at 13, I started smoking and doing drugs. At 16, I was doing hardcore drugs. And by 18, I was dealing cocaine. And I was transporting it from Washington State to California, on the plane. And I got caught one day, I was handcuffed. I was arrested, I was put behind bars in Oakland, California, of all places. At that time, Oakland was known notorious for its high rates of homicides and violent crimes. And here I was in the middle of all of that, and you would think that was my wake up call. But it wasn't, I absolutely did not care about myself. I did not care about my health, I did not care about my future, I did not care that I was in jail. And while I was there, I was still trying to make drug deals. That's how much I was like, just on this ultimate path of self destruction. I was just, like, ready to take any, I was ready to take it all on. I was fearless. But it's not the type of fearlessness that comes from courage or from the heart is the type of fearlessness that comes from absolutely not caring about myself, not knowing my value and my worth and having absolutely no self confidence at all. And I then I was facing three years in state prison. I eventually got out of jail, I went to rehab, I cleaned up the drugs and alcohol, but that sense of not being good enough, it still stuck with me. So even though I cleaned up the drugs and alcohol, I began manifesting experiences in my life that continue to validate my belief that I was unworthy, ugly, fat, and unwanted. And so I got involved with very toxic relationships with men, one after another. And it really wasn't until one day, I was walking down my hallway to my elevator, and I'm walking there. And there's this mirror that hangs on the wall across the elevator door and, and I glanced up and I saw someone, a reflection of someone in the mirror and there was this woman standing there, she was really uncapped, and she was like her face was swollen, she's wearing big baggy clothes. And just looking at her I, I kind of cringed inside, because it was like this dark, emanating energy coming from her. And in that moment, I was depressed, I was in a toxic relationship, I could hardly get myself out of bed. And in that moment, I just thought, Oh, my gosh, Holly, so I'm not that bad. I kind of judged her in that moment. And then it hit me, like a ton of bricks, Paul, but I was looking at myself in the mirror, it was me, I had become so disconnected from who I wanted to be as a woman, and who I was actually being that I didn't even recognize myself in that moment. And that was finally my wake up call. It wasn't jail, wasn't getting caught off guard, and getting arrested. It was that moment where I finally decided, oh, my God, this is not who I am. And so I'm going to do whatever it takes to become the woman that I wanted to be, which was, which was beautiful and powerful. And I wanted to walk into a room and have people notice me, not for, like how I look. But from my from my presence, you know, I wanted to have powerful presence. And I wanted to transform lives and make an impact. And that's when I began studying everything under the sun around personal transformation. And, you know, I became a certified image consultant, I became a national certified personal trainer, I became a transformational life coach. This this quest for transformation on the outside, right, kept taking me deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper insight into this world of spirituality, quantum physics, energy, healing, and metaphysics. And I became a licensed spiritual practitioner, which is the first step first licensed out of to license on my way to ministerial training. So I've been steeped in this spiritual kind of journey for over 10 years, and it's just I've learned so much about myself, I started a business around confidence to help women overcome the same type of hurdles that I've been through. And I really dedicated my career to helping others and men as well. reclaim who they are and create that divine confidence and divine confidence for me, essentially means having a solid, grounded, unwavering faith and knowing who you are, and what you're here to do, regardless of what's going on in the world outside of you. So that's the business that I started many years ago. And so to answer your question, Paul, that was part one.
Kat Kim 10:05
And then what I had all this going, I had a thriving business I was, you know, I was even invited to be a coach. On on a show with the rock, Dwayne Johnson, he had a motivational reality TV show called wake up call that I was working on behind the scenes as a coach, I had these amazing things happening. Paul, I was a spiritual teacher, I was touting the, you know, the principles of spirituality, you know, it's all about abundance, and you can create whatever you want, you know. And then, this is where I had my second wake up call, because shit was like hitting the fan around the world. And this is like five years ago, and I'm like, what's going on here, you know, my, my cousin got cancer, my sister passed away, suddenly, there was just all this stuff going on in the world, and in the rules around spirituality, that what you think is what you get what you think is what you create. It just didn't make sense. To me, it didn't apply to all of these things. Because I know my sister was not thinking about dying. My cousin wasn't thinking about getting cancer. And my black friends were not thinking about getting shot and killed. Yet these things were still happening, you know, one of my clients, hurt her son was murdered, shot and murdered and killed. And it that was a really the, the moment for me where I thought, what, what is this, I can't teach these spiritual principles, while these things are happening around in our world around us. So it was like, this part was hard, Paul, then I began to really see that there was something going around and going on in the industry, of coaching and spirituality. And I saw this conflation, occurring around spirituality, meaning that you are a successful business person. And I'm not saying that those things can happen at the same time. They absolutely can. But it became all about that. Right? And I realized that there was there was this this marriage between consumerism and spirituality. And as you know, I wrote this essay about it called consumer spirituality, which essentially, is the marriage between consumerism, spirituality, it's the mainstream pop culture spirituality of today that inadvertently perpetuates blind conformity to the very often dominating and oppressive structures of consumer capitalism. That for me was another wake up call Paul. And it hurt because I realized that I was part of that I was practicing consumer spirituality, you know, I was teaching and touting these, these rules around spirituality that all you have to do is think positive, and you can create the life that you want. So let's,
Paul Zelizer 12:54
let's unpack that. Okay, first, first, I just want to wind back a little bit and just kind of like reach back through time and send out younger herding cats, some compassion, care, like, and I'm so glad you navigated that you're still here, because a lot of young people might not navigate that. So I'm so glad you're here. It's interesting. And that's, that's actually when we, I think we connected, you were like, cat and I know each other from social media, and you're just like one of those people that was like, you know, super positive, and we shared some, you know, overlap and fitness and all that. And I was like, that's cool, right? And then like that, that thing that you were just talking about that thing. That thing right like that, going deeper with the spirituality and kind of teasing apart that conflation of like, if you do the spiritual work, then the material you'll get the fill in the blank, right then nice body there, you look good naked, or the fabulous partner or the like, you know, beautiful house, or the nice car and all the monies and the trips and fill in the blank, whatever, that conflation, I was certainly going through and I've taught consumer spirituality as well, like in my earlier days, and that was like a big like, It shook my world when I realized that I was doing something that really wasn't aligned with my values, but I saw it so much. I was like getting online. And like I had a kid and I used to be a social worker I didn't have tons of money in the bank and I was trying to get online at that done this is what you do. It's like All right, I'll do that that's better than being broke. Right? And then like ooh, and I watched you like go from like, cats pretty cool to like, boom, something happened and when you wrote that article, like not only did you just write this article, but it went freakin buyer thousands of shares it like blew up, right? Talk to us about like, what was the work you were doing to find the language and kind of peel back from that consumer spirituality You had both, you know, there's some good things in that and thinking positive and being aware of like, how we're showing up in the world. And then some of it that I might, I would use the word toxic, some of its toxic, some of its white supremacists. Some of it's got a sense of just, let's say these things. So if something bad happens, I can blame that person and not like have to be compassionate. And I can just go on, like, pursuing my dollars and my car and my big house or whatever the goals are, right? And I don't have to like, no, my gosh, a black person got shot, our systems totally fucked up. But I don't want to deal with that. So I'm just going to pretend right? The attract whatever all that you went deep and unpack that and found some vocabulary in some of our listeners are in that process, right now? What did you do to unpack it? And what would you say to somebody who's in the midst of that? Oh, shit, right? I've been doing that Paul data, cat did it and I've been doing it, what would you say to the person who's done that right now,
Kat Kim 16:14
I would say you are exactly where you need to be. And kudos for you. And don't try to fix it right now. Don't try to bypass it. Don't do all these positive affirmations. No, go deep, hurt. Step into that darkness. shut down your business, if you have to. I did. You know, it was it was not business as usual. Because it wasn't aligned anymore with what was what the transformation that was going on inside of me. Do whatever you have to do to take a break, and remove yourself from the consumer culture. remove yourself from the oppressive structures, like you have to take a break. And that's that's what part of the consumer culture keeps on drilling into us is that there's no time for a break. Because there's not enough resources in the world. So you have to keep working. You have to keep going.
Paul Zelizer 17:17
Got to go with the next launch. Right?
Kat Kim 17:18
Yeah.
Kat Kim 17:20
Yeah, you have to you have to keep going, you have to, you have to keep pushing. And if you stopped and you're going to be left with nothing. So I had to give that up, I gave that up. So maybe for you, for the person that's listening. It's not giving up your business in the moment. But there's something that that needs to happen in order for you to just take a breather, take a moment and go deeper, because that's what we're all being called into. Right now, Paul, all of us are being called into a deeper, deeper spiritual practice right now, much deeper. And the other thing I had to realize and come to terms with was my privilege, that I can practice consumer spirituality, I can stay focused on just manifesting money in great relationships and that hot, naked body, right, but other people around me, they can't do that. And consumer spirituality really is designed to be a capitalist product for privileged, affluent Westerners. It works perfectly for privileged, affluent Westerners, we don't, you know, you don't have to worry about going outside and getting shot or starving, or not having a roof over our head. So that was, you know, there comes a moment where we have to choose and decide, am I going to continue? Am I going to ignore this? And am I going to continue practicing this type of spirituality? Or am I going to work on dismantling the conditioning that I've received as a result of this white supremacy, supremacy culture, and the dismantling itself is a long arduous process. So the people who are being called into a spiritual path and a spiritual journey, be prepared for that? the very notion that spirituality is bliss and happiness and unicorns and just meditation beads, that precisely is consumer spirituality.
Paul Zelizer 19:17
I love what you're saying. And two other suggestions I'd add to everything you're saying, Go read cats freakin articles. They're really, really, really, really, really, really, really hard to like. And I'll put a link in the show notes and also be prepared that your network might change. I mean, oh, has as I was in that process, right that and I think that's part of the reason like, Oh my god, cats doing that, like, again, not that I didn't feel a warmth like oh, cats doing great work, right. But I could feel a deep in and I was in, you know, a process of really. I had been thinking about these things for a while and it was right before you know where printers was launched. Four years ago, where printers came out, I was like, we're gonna walk through as far in the direction of talking about the social context issues, as I know how to go and and left a lot of people behind who couldn't go there. And a matter of fact, now some of them are coming back and saying, Paul, Remember when I told you you were talking about racism too much? after George Floyd's murder years later, they came back and said, Wow, yeah. Help. Right. But for years, I did there is a change. And, and and i think us connecting and feeling a sense of like, Oh, my God, katsa sister, here's nobody's actually going that deep. So yeah, listeners, if you're feeling like, you might shake up your network, just not, there's no mic about it. If you do this work, some of the folks that you've been hanging out with and playing the consumer spirituality game, you're gonna shake some of that up, and some of them are not going to be cheering you on. The good news is, there's fabulous people like Kat and myself and other folks who are willing to have these hard conversations. It's not all about rainbows and unicorns, and there's some place there's some infrastructure in place and community in place that when I was kind of moving in this direction, it was less clear where to go as somebody who cared about that more social context aware version of spirituality, that feel true for you.
Kat Kim 21:35
Oh, 100% 100%. And it was it was difficult, because when you're on this path, I think now, though, Paul, because of what the type of work that you do, I mean, you have a whole community that brings in people like us, it's, I think, now it's a little bit easier to find like minded people that are traveling this path right now. But like, I think, you know, three years ago, four years, five years ago, you know, in probably you are going through this, and I was going through this, it was very lonesome. And I couldn't talk to anybody about this. You know, most of the business coaches are like, what?
Paul Zelizer 22:12
Yeah. What are you talking about? starve if you talk about that, Paul?
Kat Kim 22:18
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And because spirituality has become so mainstream, what does that mean? It means that everyone knows the law of attraction. Now, everyone knows about yoga, you know, like, but most people are still practicing consumer spirituality. Most people are still practicing consumer spirituality. So now, when you're talking about oh, you know, I've discovered that maybe this is, you know, I got to go deeper. And there's, there's things going on here that, that, that really don't apply to social issues, then you're going to come across those people who disagree. And we see it all the time, right? We just we just have to think more positive. And, you know, you're just being negative and all that tough. And so I identified four things that consumer spirituality does, and so maybe this might even help really get help our listeners become more clear about what is consumer spirituality. Should I go into those? Yeah, please. Yeah. Okay. So number one, consumer spirituality. It appropriates ancient spiritual teachings. So, we cherry pick the positive aspects of other spiritual traditions, packaged them, so they're palatable and easily consumed by the Western world. Right. And this results in cultural theft, and profoundly diluted spiritual teachings that only help us feel good in the moment rather than do good or be good. Number two, consumer spirituality promotes self interest and personal development over all else. This one was, this one was the thing for me. So spirituality is offered not as a way to alleviate collective suffering, and to create social change, but as a way to become more personally comfortable, productive, efficient, and wealthy. Right. That's what I used to spirituality for. Number three, consumer spirituality neglects humanity. It teaches us to be relentlessly positive, and to seek pleasant emotional experiences at all costs. so uncomfortable human emotions such as pain, conflict, anger, grief, rage, they are shunned, and they're labeled as low vibe and negative and they're cast as the opposite of spiritual enlightenment.
Paul Zelizer 24:43
And if you're doing it right, you wouldn't feel them. Right.
Kat Kim 24:45
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of people who have been practicing and you know, learning, the mainstream spirituality feel that feel that they really feel that I get so many Have my students and my clients say that I feel like I'm doing spirituality wrong when I'm feeling bad, or, you know, I'm depressed or angry. And that's actually the complete opposite those emotions are so, so purposeful, they are so beautiful, they are part of the human experience, to be able to feel rage, to be able to feel grief, that is such a beautiful emotion. The problem is, is we suppress it, we make it wrong, we pathologize it all, you know, and then we take drugs to make it go way, which adds more and more to this vicious cycle. And then we make other people wrong for feeling that as well. And when there's this constant state of like judgment, oh, you shouldn't, you know, just get over it. This is what spiritual bypassing is. So that's three. And then fourth is consumer spirituality encourages overconsumption and materialism. It emphasizes the universe is infinite, it's so big, so vast, so we can create a manifest whatever we want. However, when this spiritual law is married to consumerism, we simply just end up reinforcing the vicious cycles of overconsumption that perpetuate poverty, racism, inequality, corruption, and environmental degradation around the world.
Paul Zelizer 26:27
So again, I'll put a link and there's so much we could say their cat so much, I just want to touch on something as you're sharing. Like, we could talk all day about this, but I went to number three. And particularly in this context, in particular, as a Jew, is a very deeply spiritual man named Viktor Frankl all the time in the circle circles. And one of the things that people don't like to talk about in his work, is he talked about he wrote the basics of Man's Search for Meaning when he's in a concentration camp, his experiences, you know, these are not rainbow and unicorn folks, right? Using a fucking concentration camp. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things he said Is he noticed that the overly optimistic folks in the concentration camps were the people who broke the first law, they died. Yeah, they didn't have what it takes. Yeah. And that observation is what one of the primary motivator motivations for writing Man's Search for Meaning. It's people who found meaning and purpose, even in the difficult experiences, not try to meditate them away. But like, Oh, my God, this is really hard stuff we're dealing with, yeah. And down deep. And that, you know, somebody, he told the story of somebody who is a librarian and like, snuck This is like, threatened her life. She snuck books to children in the concentration camp, because she wanted them to know how to read and to know there is a reality outside that concentration. And she snuck it in and she got caught, she would have died. But it gave her meaning and purpose. And he said, that's how you survive heart you find meaning and purpose and not like try to will away the challenges like if you could work against them great. But even when they show up, what are your values? And how do you be of service to others. And the one two had that survived and went on to live thriving lives. And even though they had trauma, they were able to navigate post Holocaust and the ones who are like, super, it's all going to be over next month, right? Is this just a little blip on the screen, hang in there, it's going to be better. And then I went on a month and then three months, and then six months, and then two years and those books broke? Yeah, that definition of meaning and purpose is what's you know, people are asking me, how are you navigating this, like, incredible confluence of crises, right. And a lot of spiritual people have broke with Coronavirus and protests and the economic collapse and the climate change, you know, and the ones and people in my networks who have a sense of values and purpose. They're like Viktor Frankl they're doing okay, doesn't mean we're having parties. This is hard. Yeah, they wake like I wake up and I'm like, Damn, I get to talk to cat today. I like this good. I love with the people in a way. I I'm so heartbroken that humanity is where we are. And I get out of bed and there's nothing I'd rather be doing than having this conversation with you, cat and this moment, and this time, given where we are as a human family. I'm on I'm on power, right? Yeah. So when you said number three as like Viktor Frankl about Viktor Frankl.
Kat Kim 29:51
I love that book. That was a life changing book. For me. That was one of the books when I was going through my first kind of wake up call where I I was like, wow, there's, there's, there's, there's I have options here, you know. So instead of being the victim, I realized that I can choose how to think and how to define my experiences. That was I love him. And that book. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
Paul Zelizer 30:17
Otherwise human. Yeah, see this, I want to hear what your work looks like. Now before I did, I just want to take a short break and thank our sponsors. And some of you know, this is a member supported podcast. And in particular, I want to talk about something we're doing in the aware printers community that's brand new. You hear this podcast, some of you listen regularly, we now have a podcast success team, and it's growing and it's getting momentum. If you're somebody who wants to have a business that is impactful and helps you live a good quality of life. And you hate like 17 second version of messaging, right? Like you have to like get it into 12 words for Instagram, or like, you know, two minutes for YouTube. Take a look at podcasting. You know, like this is a deep dive podcasting. And we can really unpack things. And we have time and space and you can be deep and you can be real, and it's one of the most intimate forms of growing a business I've ever come across. If you'd like to learn a little bit about how on either side of the mic, you can host a podcast and really just have the beauty and benefit of being in the seat and having these kind of fabulous conversations with awesome people like cat cam. And or you can be a guest and go on other people's podcasts. And they've been building them for years. And if you're wise about it, every episode can have 50,000 downloads or 5000 downloads and you just show up and be a great guest. And let people like me do all the hard work producing that podcast and posting it and figuring out iTunes and Spotify and how to get it out there you just show up and be a great guest it's a fabulous way to grow a business particularly if it has the intentions of depth and transformation. If you'd like to learn more about it go check out the where printers community at aware printers.com community and take a look at the podcast success team and see if that might be a fit for you. And thank you to everybody and aware printers who sponsors this podcast so cat let's talk about so you had this like major reboot you literally just undercover went radio silent for a while there literally unplugged your business and then came back on and one of the key frames in this new expression and iteration and very powerful one is divine confidence. What is that?
Kat Kim 32:50
So before I get to that there was like while I was on my tell word spiral.
Kat Kim 33:00
And when the the dark night of the soul was visiting, I really began studying different spiritual teachers. One of them who is who I consider now my biggest spiritual teacher, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and I saw this huge contrast between the type of spirituality that Dr. Martin Luther King taught and what Abraham Hicks taught.
Paul Zelizer 33:35
Really, there's a difference there?
Kat Kim 33:39
Oh, my goodness, Paul, I wrote a post about this. People were not happy people. Happy
Paul Zelizer 33:49
back on this one, like, shit, I'll be like, happy to take that off.
Kat Kim 33:54
I wrote this like three years ago, I remember I wrote about the differences between abraham hicks and Dr. Martin Luther King, and it was really just, you know, just just to I was bringing the attention to how they talk about different things. And I was like, be wise about who you choose to be your spiritual teachers. And of course, there were many people who didn't like that. So they're not
Paul Zelizer 34:15
going to choose you to be their coach. I'm gonna choose you over abraham hicks every day.
Kat Kim 34:22
Yeah, well, and there's a time and place for the this though spirituality one on one. This is what I've just decided to call it spirituality one on one. And it's a very important part of the spiritual journey when we do realize that we have a choice between a big being a victim and the CO creator of our life, right. And when you do have a choice between choosing between negative thoughts and positive thoughts, it's very powerful as we all know, my spirituality one on one, but now we're being called to graduate from that class and move on. Right and this is where we have to really begin thinking about Not ourselves as individualistic individual human beings, right, but as part of the collective, that's what we're being called into right now. We're all being called to stop being selfish, really, because it's not just about us. And this is so much about what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. talks about. And he says that our job as spiritual seekers and spiritual folks is to not conform to prevailing social conditions. We have a mandate to be nonconformist. He says, we have a mandate to be nonconformist. And this command, he says comes from Jesus Christ, the most dedicated nonconformist, whose ethical nonconformity still challenges the conscience of mankind. Oh, man, when I read that, I was like, Wow. Okay, so what does this mean? You know, what does that mean? What does it mean, to be a nonconformist? What does it mean to to go against the grain and not follow the cultural conditioning of the world. And that is the path that I had. This is my second turn, where I realized that, you know, this spiritual path is more, it's going to require a lot more from me, it's going to require a lot more from me. And that's when I wrote that essay. And in that essay, I define nonconformance spirituality, right. And, you know, I just named it non conforming spirituality. It's not a thing that I created. It's just that it's, you know, it's coming from really deep Christian values, actually, because Dr. Martin Luther King was a Christian, right. And so what he was teaching was Christian values. But I don't I don't claim myself to be a Christian, even though I'm being called to the ministerial path because I'm a nonconformist. So, nonconformist spirituality, as opposed to consumer spirituality has also four things that I've identified. One, it requires that we develop the social consciousness necessary to advance humanity forward, and disrupt the established order in a way that aligns with our natural aptitudes. So what does that mean? It means that we all come with our natural gifts and our talents and we all have a way that we can contribute to social consciousness and advance humanity forward in a way that matches and aligns with who we are, because not all of us are a Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. is plain and simple. We're not all meant to be at the helm of you know, hundreds of millions of thousands of people and speaking in front of big crowds. That's not meant for all of us. So that's number one. Number two, nonconformist spirituality requires that we actively deprogram the cultural conditioning of consumer capitalism and break free from the insidious belief that we must consume or buy something in order to be okay. And this doesn't mean that we have to completely renounce our earthly desires for joy and pleasure and abundance and purchasing things that we like it because that's all within our spiritual birthright to fulfill these human desires. But at the same time, at the same time, we must also become acutely aware of the systems and structures in place that convinced us that there's something fundamentally wrong with who we are, and that we need to buy something in order to be okay. Right. And number three, nonconformance spirituality as opposed to consumer spirituality asks that we grapple with human suffering. And we develop a commitment to social responsibility. It really just takes us out of our kind of our hyper individualistic, self indulgent stupor where it's all about me, me, me, me, me and what's in it for me, me, me, me, me. And it inspires us to galvanize our resources, our talents, our skills to be in selfless service. And lastly, nonconformist spirituality, urges us to cultivate divine confidence. And divine confidence is just a ground being grounded. It's, it's, it's that it's a knowing that no matter what is happening in the world outside of us, we're grounded in a powerful knowing of who we are, and what we're here to do.
Paul Zelizer 39:30
Okay, crispy are things. So, you work with people in a couple different ways in terms of helping them kind of land on their expression of non conformist spirituality and really tap in to that sense of divine competence. So one of the ways you work with people is one on one, talk to us about your one on one bar.
Kat Kim 39:56
Yeah. So I work with women leaders, spiritual seekers and changemakers, who are really ready to step into the best version of themselves and truly make a difference. People who know deep in their boats, deep in their bones, that they're being called to do something, but they're constantly feeling stuck. They're holding themselves back. They have a pattern of constantly settling and playing small. And they've always tried to fit themselves into a box, but it's never worked. I work with people like me, who who are not, who are not meant to fit and follow rules. I've tried so many years to do it the way that people tell me to do it. And it never fucking works, ever. And there are times when I find myself still trying to do that. And I'm like,
Paul Zelizer 40:48
fucking roll. Oh, you can't, Paul, you're not.
Kat Kim 40:54
Right. Exactly. Exactly. nonconformist, and I'm a misfit. I realized this, I'm a misfit. And there's nothing wrong with that. So these are the type of people that I love working with, because I can help them find their own way. Because we are meant to find our own way and create our own superpowers. And and define our own superpowers and do it our way. That's what makes us unique. So my one on one coaching really is for those that person who's been trying again and again and again, and they feel like there's something wrong with them, because they can't seem to get it right. And I'm here to tell you, no, there's nothing wrong with you at all. You are You are here to create a different way a different path. And I'm really, really good at at helping people draw that out. I one of my clients, called me Professor X. Do you know Professor X, but what's that movie? I always forget all with the Wolverine and oh, gosh, yeah,
Paul Zelizer 41:51
I know, you're tired. I don't remember. Ah, sorry.
Kat Kim 41:55
Um, oh, x men. Right.
Kat Kim 42:02
So Professor X, he created the School, where he brings in and he finds the mutants in society, the mutants who seem to like who, who are always trying to fit in and do things the way that regular people are doing. But they can't, right. There's something else something so special is the magical power that they have in their cars. And they're like, they find themselves having to, like, hide it. But Professor X creates the school. And he brings these people in and he draws out that magical thing. And he allows people to step into their into their true identity as a mutant. That's kind of like what I do.
42:43
Oh, I love that.
Kat Kim 42:46
Yeah, I know, I know, my client. He was like, that's what you are. And I was like, Oh, my God, I love it.
Paul Zelizer 42:53
I see the T shirt now. Yeah.
Kat Kim 42:58
Yeah, so that's, that's what I do. And I and I did create a school called the school of divine confidence.
Paul Zelizer 43:03
The us about that. I was gonna ask about that.
Kat Kim 43:04
Yeah, it's it's, it's for people who are the same who are really being called feeling your bones that they're being called to do something important, but they just haven't been able to figure out what it is or how it is. And so I teach these non conformist spiritual principles I teach them about, you know, the thing about me that's different is that I am on the ministerial path. Right, Paul? So I'm not teaching these, like kind of superficial law of attraction. You didn't just read an article on medium? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, you know, the best, the best compliments that I've received about, or the best feedback that I've received about people who've been through my school, is that they now have a new relationship with God. And when I heard this, I mean, that wasn't even my intention. But I just knew I was like, that just confirmed that affirmed everything for me that all right, this is this work is not me. It's God working through me. And when someone can say that I had a, you know, I was afraid of God and God for me whenever I thought about it brought bad emotions or bad feelings. But now I see God as a co creator in my life and that I don't have to be afraid of God. For me, that's like, that's, that's, you know, my work is done.
Paul Zelizer 44:34
My work is done. Now, somebody wanted to get a taste and isn't sure like, is this fit? Am I a mutant like cats? You've got a masterclass coming up. Tell us about that.
Kat Kim 44:48
Yeah, it's called the divine confidence masterclass. This is where I teach the three pillars of divine confidence that are really essential to overcoming insecurities and self doubt in This culture of consumerism, I talk a lot about the consumer capitalist culture, because we have to become aware of what we are steeped in. And consumer capitalism, by the way, consumer capitalism and is ruled by white supremacy, right, and capitalism and racism, they go hand in hand,
45:20
they go hand in
Kat Kim 45:20
hand, we are all tied to this together, and it's really uncomfortable to go deep, and to really uncover our history, and to really get to the understanding and knowing that all the benefits that receive we receive, being a developed country goes back to our ties with slavery. Yeah, everyone around the world, not just America, everyone on the world benefits and benefited from slavery, hands down. And so we have to become really aware of that, you know, and it hurts, it's shameful, and it's painful. And at the same time, that's exactly where we need to go we we have to, we have to face that, if we're going to change it, we have to face it first.
Paul Zelizer 46:13
are gonna say I'm just comfortable getting bold these days kept using the language that I learned from Desiree Adaway liberatory consciousness, if your spiritual path doesn't have some frame of liberatory conscious understanding these mechanisms you're talking about that have created these structures that are now like in complete crisis, and you're like, I'm practicing, but it ain't working. I'm gonna say you're on the wrong spiritual path. You need to make an adjustment in your spiritual path and do you don't have like, go to cat or go to somebody. But if you're not doing the liberatory consciousness work, you will you're not supposed to feel happy right now. Because everything you've built your spiritual foundation on, is built on oppression and harming other humans and harming the planet. And if you're super comfortable and blissed out, while your entire spiritual framework sits on the oppression of others, and harming the earth, and white supremacy and all these horrible things, and you're totally chill and totally relaxed, then you are a psychopath. I can't help. But our listeners are mostly not psychopaths. our listeners are mostly people who've gotten pulled in by Consumer spirituality. And now that stuff isn't where it's not meant for these times. We need liberatory consciousness models. Yeah, that's exactly what you're doing here. So like, if you're like somebody's like, yeah, I need an upgrade for these times. Go check out what cats doing. Go. Oh,
47:52
thank you. Thank you, and you can
Kat Kim 47:54
find me easily. In. I created a Facebook group for nonconformist spiritual seekers. It's called The Confident leadership community. So you can Google that easily. I think, Paul, you'll have links or something.
Paul Zelizer 48:07
We're gonna have a lot.
Kat Kim 48:11
Yeah, come join me in the confident leadership community and, and just the point that you're talking about Paul, you know, we're we're all being called to deepen right now. And when we're being called to deepen, it's not comfortable, it requires timeout, it requires that we enter a phase of just, you know, unknowing, and uncertainty. And so if you're there in that moment, don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid of it. Because the divine lives in the depths of darkness, not just the light, but divine reason, the depths of darkness, not just the light. So this is our opportunity, collectively and individually to hold each other. And to step into that darkness together.
Paul Zelizer 48:53
Beautiful, I love that car. So in this time, and this moment, which is, you know, not like other moments, and certainly my lifetime and our lifetime cat, like, as you look ahead to this work, spirituality, deep spirituality and competence and being aware of the social context that any one human is operating in. What do you see in the space? Like Looking ahead, a year from now, five years from now like what what's emergent in your work? And what's like on cat Kim's mind that she's looking ahead and saying, here's where I think we are as humans, and this is what I need to be doing right now to be prepared for what's coming down the pike even if there's a lot of uncertainty and what's coming down the pike.
Kat Kim 49:48
Oh, Paul, you just what do you do? Do you interview people for
Paul Zelizer 49:56
100 plus episodes Now I'm being interviewed myself equally. So yeah, about about 100 on each side of the mic a year, let's say, you build some muscles.
Kat Kim 50:12
Yeah, that's such a great question. And here's the thing, this process of dismantling consumerism, capitalism, racism, oppression, white supremacy, it doesn't happen overnight. So all of you guys who are listening and looking for that six week, deep transformation, you're going to come out of this as a different person.
Paul Zelizer 50:40
Six weeks, I thought I got to do it in three hours. Come on,
Kat Kim 50:45
right. dismantling is not a joke, you know, is no joke. It's, it's, it's constantly if you're really on this path, you are constantly going to be facing your privilege. And you're constantly going to be facing this opportunity of Okay, do I stick to this easier, privileged path, because this would make things so much easier, this would mean that I'm making more money. This would mean that I don't have to face all that stuff. You're going to be constantly be faced with that question? Or if I really am going to dismantle my privilege here, what does that actually mean? And that it's that is constantly it's, it's work, Paul, it is so much work, there is no stick six step, path or formula. And I when I began this path, you know, I am an entrepreneur, I am a coach, who has a business a for profit business. At the same time, I talk about the consumer culture, and how it's constantly brainwashing us and convincing us that we need to buy this and purchase that to be okay. So it's like, Where do I lie in all of this, you know, and, and I, and I've, you know, through my own framework of the, you know, three pillars of divine confidence in my own work, I know that my path is to continue to create a business and to continue with my business, because I did think about maybe I should turn this into a nonprofit. But that doesn't really align with my personal needs, which are also important, you know, so I'm all of this to say that I have been thinking for years ever since this has really come up for me about what does it look like to have a business for profit business, in a post capitalist world? Now? I didn't think this polecat post capitalist world was gonna come in 2020
Paul Zelizer 52:59
was not on your bingo card. Hmm.
Kat Kim 53:03
It wasn’t. Ifyou read my essay at the very end, you know, I talk about like, you know, the consumer culture as we know it, or, or consumer capitalism or the capitalism as we know it is going to have to change. I did not really did not expect that. You're a powerful woman. I mean.
Paul Zelizer 53:17
like rock the entire world down to its core. No kidding.
Kat Kim 53:22
Yeah, so I have been thinking a long time about what that looks like, Paul, what is a post capitalist business? What is a post capitalist sustainable business? And it has not been easy, because that doesn't really exist, especially in the coaching industry. So I've been having really amazing conversations with some people, because not a lot of people are even on board with this yet. But I'm just going to leave it here because I don't have all the answers yet. And I think I can say this, I'm really checking into myself right now. Do I want to say it and everything in with me, you say? Yes.
Paul Zelizer 54:02
Sir, the thing
Kat Kim 54:06
I have been thinking about so the question is, how do I move away from extractive capitalism? From the idea of having a coaching business where it's all about me and making bunch of money for myself towards something new? How am I going to disrupt the, you know, this industry?
Kat Kim 54:26
And the idea of a co op, coaching business has been running through my mind for the last, you know, two or three years? And I've been thinking about, like, what does that actually look like? How do I create that? So that's where I'm at right now, Paul, I'm considering completely just changing the structure of my business. And again, this doesn't happen overnight. Because I don't think this this exists in the coaching industry. But I am thinking about like, what is you know, what, what does this mean legally? What does this mean financially? What does this mean? organizationally, and I get really excited about it. Because the whole idea behind a post capitalist business is that it is no longer about top down hierarchy. And it doesn't have to be me who has to figure out all the answers to this question. I can bring people in. And they will contribute to this as much as I as I am. And I don't have to have all the answers. And there's going to be people who who come with their brilliance and their genius who can help me with this. And I don't have to make all the decision. So So there's that. But the interesting thing about that Paul is, so I'll be completely transparent, is there's this the part of me who that part of me that still is working is still being dismantled. There's that ego part of me that thinks, all but if I give my power away, if I give my money away, then what about me? Right? There's that part of me that still that exists. So I want to be really transparent, because that's the part that I'm grappling with. And it's okay. It's okay that I'm grappling with that, it doesn't mean that I have to be one or the other in this moment. It just means that that's I'm in the process of dismantling it one layer at a time.
Paul Zelizer 56:21
Thanks for sharing that cat taken risk with us and anything I can do to help. Please keep me in the loop. I love your vision and love exploring alternative business models more inclusive on so anything I can do, please let me know.
Kat Kim 56:35
Thank you.
Paul Zelizer 56:36
So I could hang out and talk to you all day cat is fascinating. And I don't want to do that to you. I don't want to do that to our listeners, if there was something you were hoping we would get to today, and we haven't talked about talked about it. Yeah. Or there's something you want to leave our listeners with, as we bring this interview to a close, what would that be?
Kat Kim 56:54
I would say that those of us that are on this spiritual path, we often feel that are on the spiritual path and who are on the path to, you know, making change in our culture in our society. It's really difficult path to be on. But we're all being called into it, because there's a greater force, and that greater force is God. And when we bring God into the picture, and we co partner with God, and we surrender, and we create an intimate relationship with this God, so intimate that we're constantly in conversation, we're constantly community, we're constantly in, in a devotional practice, then we'll come to the point where we discover that, Oh, this is just this is just God. It's God's work. It's God's work and, and wherever God is, which is everywhere. There's infinite power. There's unconditional love. And there's, there's, there's abundance. And we have access to that at all times. And I cannot do this. And I and I highly advise that none of you guys do this. Without that beautiful, beautiful, intimate relationship with spirit.
Paul Zelizer 58:24
Thank you so much for being on the show. I so appreciate you and your willingness to have the kind of conversation that we have today.
Kat Kim 58:31
It has been such a joy. I know you and I can really talk forever. I we had to stop talking when we were preparing for this podcast.
Paul Zelizer 58:39
Because no, don't say that we're not recording Yeah. Shall I always deep out to you and I will put the links listeners to all the things that we talked about cap mentioned today, and go check out cats website, go check out our master class just so appreciate what she's up to and love this iteration of your work. Now cat does Love it. Love it. That's all the time we have for today's interview. Thank you so much for this evening. Just a quick reminder, we are now at two episode per week podcast and a lot of our guests and our topics come from our listeners. If you have an idea, please go to the aware printers website and hit our contact page and make your suggestion either about a guest or a topic we love listener suggested topics. For now I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please, please take really good care of yourself in these pointed times. And lastly, thank you for the positive impact that you're working for for our work.
WHAT IS AWAREPRENEURS?
Awarepreneurs is a popular conscious business and social entrepreneur podcast. You can find out more at www.awarepreneurs.com