268 | Impact Networks: Scaling Out Instead of Scaling Up with David Ehrlichman
Our guest this week on the pod is David Ehrlichman. David is the author of Impact Networks and the Catalyst and coordinator of Converge, a network of practitioners who cultivate impact networks.
And a special thanks to members of the Awarepreneurs Community for sponsoring this episode!
Resources mentioned in this episode include:
Interview with David Ehrlichman on Impact Networks
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
SPEAKERS
Paul Zelizer, David Ehrlichman
Paul Zelizer 00:01
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of the Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, competence, business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode, we do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who has market tested experience that is already transforming.
Paul Zelizer 00:23
Before I introduce our guests in our topic, I have one request. If you could go over to Apple podcasts or whatever app you're listening to the show on, hit the subscribe button, do a review, we'd really appreciate it. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to David Ehrlichman. And our topic is Impact Networks Scaling Out Instead of Scaling Up, David is the author of a great book called Impact Networks, and the catalyst and coordinator of Converge a network of practitioners who cultivate impact networks. David, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to be here. Before we get into this really important work, David, we're called to wear printers. And one of the ways we like to get to know somebody is to ask you about a wellness or resiliency practice that you use to resource yourself for this important work.
David Ehrlichman 01:21
Sure, for me, it's being out in nature. I live here in Coast Salish lands north of Seattle region, Pacific Northwest. And I have two dogs, and I go out with a walk with them every day in the forest, and just try to breathe in that fresh air. So David, this work about networks and scaling out, you know, sustainability, and all these great things that the network's you're working with, like give us a little backstory, how did you get into this work and a little bit of this sense of the trajectory of your career so far? Sure. Yeah, my journey into this work started maybe 15 years ago, it worked in many different types of organizations in a tech startup, a large company, small nonprofit, service industry. And, and it was when I was working at nonprofit organization, I knew by then that I needed my work to be for purpose for impact. And I was doing work at this, this organization that does tremendous, tremendous work, they support people without shelter, to get trained in and find jobs in the food industry. And it was, when I was there, that I was noticing that, while this organization was really making a tremendous difference in the lives of individual people, their work, in many ways, was one part of this massive broken system that just creates this chronic lack of affordable housing. And, and I also noticed how this organization was primarily working alone. And that this issue of lack of affordable housing and lack of shelter and need for all different kinds of services, it's, it's an issue that touches so many different people, so many different sectors, so many different issue areas, it's not something that we can really truly address alone, if we're looking at getting at some of the root causes of these issues and or are changing the system or the structures and, and kind of a meaningful way. And so I got really curious about how we could work not just within individual organizations, but also across across organizations and across sectors to address issues that we can't solve alone. That was really the guiding question for me then that carried me know how can we work across these these normal silos and boundaries that are everywhere. And that led me to eventually to monitor Institute which was the social sector wing of a consulting firm and it was there that I got exposed to early papers from people like you and Holly and Valdis Krebs and, and Madeline Taylor and Peter plastic and early thinkers in network science and and also learn about community approaches to community organizing and community building and how social movements really functioned. And
David Ehrlichman 05:03
shutting down existing coal plants passing energy efficiency policies and transportation efficiency. And, and also learn about individual organizations like kaboom and others that, that scale their impact, not by growing a bigger and bigger organization, but by scaling out through connections and through collaboration. Kaboom, builds playgrounds in low income neighborhoods, but they, they do it by partnering with local on the ground organizations in those different places who who know a lot more about the context and in the history of place than than they ever would, and are able to connect with the community in a different way.
David Ehrlichman 05:45
So that led me then to really pursue this this pathway of, of cross sector or cross organization collaboration that led me to Fresno, California, where I was a founding coordinator for a network that brought together 48 different organizational leaders to revitalize their city, people from really different sectors, people who often really disagreed on issues,
David Ehrlichman 06:10
including the public school advocate and the charter school advocate, seeing that they were on opposite sides of the table in so many ways, but also, you know, when you dig deep enough, find that there is there is common ground, and they have shared hopes for their community and a shared sense of place and a care for their city and, and that there were things that they could agree on and work towards, and while also acknowledging and digging into the places where they disagreed. After three years there, I was then a founding coordinator for the Santa Cruz Mountains stewardship network, which brings together 24 organizations, to steward half a million acres of land, incredibly biodiverse region, bringing together government agencies, state, local and federal, academic institutions, nonprofits, and land Trust's and timber companies and tribal groups, to look at the whole land and, and figure out ways to steward the land so that both human and natural systems thrive for generations to come. Again, groups on sometimes opposite sides of issues are really different perspectives of what to do, but, but the why there's lots of commonality in terms of the why and shared care for the land and love of the land. And, and again, there were things that they found that they could work on, as well and, you know, reducing the risk of catastrophic wildfire or invasive property development. And when it comes to land stewardship, just a quick example, you have to work systemically. Because if you get rid of all the invasive species off your parcel of land, your neighbor hasn't done the same, it doesn't quite matter. So we have to work across these jurisdictional boundaries, that often get in the way. All that led me to pursue this work to try to support others to work in these multi organizational ways and catalyze converge and 2013 to help build the field and to support and grow networks that were producing an impact in some way. And over the last nine years, now, we've worked with over 50, or 60, different impact networks, all different kinds of fields, all for purpose, across four different continents. And I'm really discovering that each one is so different in terms of the context and the history and the people who are involved. But also, there's so much that similar in terms of often in terms of how they begin or the type of leadership that's required, and this and the processes and structures they use, to form and grow. And it was those patterns, and also the stories of so many different network leaders I've become connected to over the years that that really led me to write this book, I actually didn't want to write a book, I was really hesitant to it. But ultimately, I was called to and, and felt like there was a story to tell here and resources to share with people to learn from the other examples of, of incredible, these multi stakeholder collaborations that are producing real impact all around the world. So that really brings me to today here this conversation with you
Paul Zelizer 09:27
so much and what you just said, David, I did a 15 year career and community mental health and community organizing. Before I do it, I do today. So yeah, I think I have some sense of the echo system. You're talking about people doing great work, but the system's broken and the system keeps you know having its impact that's not helpful and you're trying to fix it and like wait, I got to go upstream and see what's going on here. So I really hear you there and I'm so glad that you doing the work that you do now. So no In what you know about network science and having these experience working with multiple dozens of impact networks at scale, like, give us a sense. How can somebody who's saying, Okay, this makes sense. But if I want to get started going from, you know, blinders on, I work in a company or I work in a nonprofit, and I just do my thing to being more impact network focused, how do I even begin that?
Paul Zelizer 10:30
Really, it's when you embrace that network mindset you're speaking to it's, we stop working in isolation. And instead, we turn our focus toward cultivating connections. And we start to notice more intently about how our efforts are related to others. And this is where we talk about rather than trying to scale up in individual organization, we can scale out, increasing our impact through collaboration and way to think about it is many organizations or individuals see themselves or focus on their own organization, at the center of their universe, right with many potential stakeholders around them that we could collaborate with to, to further our own mission, the mission of our organization, the shift here is to see ourselves as part of a larger interconnected system of different actors and organizations, were really not the sun at the center of the solar system, even though we're usually the heroes of our own stories. And, and we focus so much of our time and attention on the health and status of our own organization makes sense for many good reasons. But we have to recognize that really, we're one star in this huge and diverse constellation of actors, organizations of different groups who also care about these shared issues and, and are affected by these issues in different ways. And so rather than putting ourselves or organization at the center of our focus all the time, it's how do we put that shared purpose at the center? What's the core issue that you care about, that many other groups also touch and care about. And then, when we find that, we can intentionally work to strengthen the connections and flows of information between them. And that's really what it mill means to build an impact for purpose, and network for purpose. There are all different types of networks networks are all around us, at their most basic networks are just webs of relationships. Connecting people are things. There are neural networks in our brains, the networks of neurons and synapses. There are technological networks like the routers and cables that make up the internet. They're the mycelial networks underneath our feet and forest floor that connect trees and plants together to transfer water and nitrogen, and carbon, and other nutrients and minerals between them. We've learned from Suzanne SomArts, work and others that that's how trees share resources and in some ways to communicate with one another. And of course, we all know about social networks around us, that people you become connected to and work in life. Most social networks form organically as you become introduced to new people. But what many don't realize is that networks can also be deliberately organized to do so much more than just social connection. We can also deliberately organize networks not just for connection, but also for learning to accelerate the flows of information and resources between us to spark collaborative action to cohere social movements together, so that we can change mindsets or affect policies at very large scales. I define impact networks as networks that bring individuals and organizations together for learning and collaborative action for shared purpose. And, as you said, the systems we live in work in. So often they are fragmented. Some people in organizations know each other and work together. But overall, the system is relatively relatively disconnected information isn't flowing between different clusters of activity. And so the shift here is to see the opportunity to connect these different parts of the system in a more deliberate way. And then to support the ongoing flow of information and resources from person to person and organization or organization without having to go through some centralized entity. And growing into this. This highly interconnected group is a dense, vibrant ecosystem of different individuals and organizations are connecting learning and taking action on a shared purpose, not all having to do one thing together, but really strengthening the system as a whole through more dense connections and flows. Beautiful.
Paul Zelizer 14:52
So in a blog post you wrote earlier this year titled The Network mindset, you wrote, The rather than trying to scale up an individual organization, building an increasingly large and efficient machine, that's sort of like standard startup mindset, right? He's scale hockey stick grow. That's the way you have more positive impact you are offering, they seek to scale out develop stronger connections to generate impact through collaboration. And as I was reading, I was like, yes. And also, I also found there's a, there's a mixed response in me if I'm fairly honest about it. Collaboration has been some of the most beautiful experiences in my entire career, I've been working over 30 years and trying to have positive impact in various ways through that. And it's also been some of my most painful experiences, people asking for things and not you know, feeling unequal or not mutual. So when we're trying to have when trying to strengthen our impact through collaboration, what tips can you give us, David about, like, how we can tip the scales to more functional collaborations and ones that are really working for all the members involved? And steer away from collaborations where, you know, I've certainly and many of my colleagues have said, you know, I put a lot of time and energy into that, when I look back on it, the return, the impact was very low. And I wish I hadn't done that.
Paul Zelizer 16:20
Absolutely, people and organizations, embark on cloud or if it's all the time, and because in many cases, we know we need to work together more effectively, we have to work together in unprecedented ways, we have to address these issues that can't be solved by working alone to address systemic issues, we have to work systemically. And that means collaborating but but so often, you're right, we're frustrated by the results. There's the term out there collaboration, fatigue, can be really hard and really draining. Often think it goes wrong for one of two reasons or both. First, we tried to structure these collaborations like we would an organization as a hierarchy with some central authority directing the work and then people fitting into specific roles to move it forward. Or can we try to plan it all out in advance identifying really specific measurable outcomes for the effort before people have even had the chance to bring their diverse perspectives together live their lived experiences together to talk and discover together what they can and want to do? The predicting control approach only works if we already know what needs to be done and how to do it. But complex issues are experienced really differently by different people. People are affected by these issues in different ways. They see things really differently depending on when and when their experiences. And so in our work to address complex issues, we can't plan it all out in advance. We have to bring different actors together to make sense of these issues and strengthen their ability to share information resources and coordinate their work. That's really what it means to build a network for impact that I think a few know about the connection framework, there are different domains of issues that we face. Simple issues are like tying your shoe, there's a very clear point A to point B, it's really well understood. It's really achievable. complicated issues are like building a bridge, there is again, clear beginning clear end, we have really indirect prior examples that we can build on, we can map it all out in advance who can build a blueprint, and then have people fit into very specific roles to move it forward. That's when a hierarchical structure is really good at doing what it does best, predicting and controlling, identifying specific roles to move things forward. But when we're faced with complexity, there's not a clear beginning or end if there's no readily apparent solution. So we have to be able to experiment and modify strategies as we learn what works and what does not. This is where I think collaboration is really the most necessary, but we have to be willing to move forward into the unknown together. It's not as if we, we all are in the same rowboat having the exact same speed, getting to the exact same place at the exact same time. Now it's really more like creating a flotilla of kayaks group of autonomous vessels that are moving forward a bit into the unknown, we might have a good idea of where we want to end up together but along the way each person organization needs kayak, has agency and choice free to adjust course to accommodate circumstances needs. And the journey unfolds as as any individual responds to the environment and the group responds to the inspiration of different members. But meanwhile, we're staying in close communication with each other. We're notifying each other about what we're seeing and sensing and interested in exploring. And we're able to go farther together than we ever could alone. So I think people often get frustrated and In collaboration when they feel like we all have to agree, we all have to do one thing together. But really I'm talking about here is actually strengthening the system as a whole by increasing connection, and opportunities for flows of information and resources between us. And folks still have autonomy, we still are able to go off and do work that feels important to us, but then invite others in, when that makes sense as well. And we can get into some of the network leadership roles, which I really think is very important for supporting and sustaining collaborations like this, because they don't just happen, they they really,
Paul Zelizer 20:43
self organization, or spontaneous self organization is pretty rare. And really, it usually only goes so far. The truth that many people overlook is that still in collaborative environments, leadership always matters. It's just a really different form of leadership than the one we see in hierarchical environments. Rather than defining rigid structures and rules, it's about nurturing this culture of trust and rest reciprocity, instead of command and control. How can we increase connection and collaboration? These network leaders may also be called servant leaders or facilitative. Leaders, systems leaders, they're not there to tell people what to do, but really to foster connection, self organization that support people to discover what they can and want to do together and network leaders. They're so often what makes the difference, but because they're usually so humble or quick to share the credit, we rarely ever know who they are. And we think that these types of collaborations just formed. But leadership always matters even in collaborative contexts.
Paul Zelizer 21:44
What would be some examples of people who you think are doing network leadership really well?
Paul Zelizer 21:51
There are many I've listed in the book and share their stories and also really encourage folks if you want to see six stories in particular to watch the impact networks documentary does that converge that net slash film because there are leaders who really embody this this way of being there's leaders from 100k and 10, Thalia Milgram Alcott, who brought together over 300 different organizations and groups to train and support 100,000, high quality STEM teachers across the US in 10 years, they just achieved their goal. And last year, there's Dylan skybrook, the Santa Cruz Mountains stewardship network, and deer who were the defender network, which protects migrant rights across borders, so many different leaders, but the commonalities between them is their people who who see the vision for change and inspire new networks to form they, they help network to clarify its purpose and principles and to cultivate connections, they, they share power, they facilitate collective decision making. They create opportunities, importantly, for other people to step into leadership in a variety of ways. And, and they demonstrate an incredible amount of care for the network as a whole. It's taking responsibility to nurture its growth and consistently anticipated fees and challenges, but also sharing that responsibility completely with others because network leadership, even though we can often find or it is important to have individuals who who wake up every day thinking about the network, network leadership is also distributed, anybody can be in network and leader in many different ways. At any time. There, there are different roles that people can play. And there are catalysts, people who bring people together for the first time around an issue or conversation or move a project forward. facilitators, people who bring different perspectives together and and help lead meetings to get to some way forward. There are weavers people who are natural connectors, people who build strong relationships, and then find opportunities to connect people with one another, or there might be an opportunity for learning or mutual support. And then there are coordinators, people who do so much of the back of the house work that's often unseen, the logistics, the managing the tech systems, the all the kinds of the back of the house infrastructure, that that these collaborations also need these impact networks need and, and again, anybody can really step up into these different types of leadership positions. But I think this this type of servant leadership, facilitative, leadership, network leadership, whatever you want to call it, it really is so critical in supporting these types of multi stakeholder collaborations to really get to where they want to go.
Paul Zelizer 24:45
Beautiful. So let's do this in a moment. I want to come back and hear what your company nine years in converge looks like and what some of the offerings you have. Before we do that, I just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. Do you have a business that's about making the world a better place, and you want it to grow both in terms of your impact, helping more people and your income, so you could live a good quality life. If you do, I'd like to talk to you about some research for a second. When scientists look at what actually contributes to humans reaching their goals, the single biggest predictor, whether it's a wellness goal, or it's a business school, is what they call social support. In other words, a group of people who are on a similar journey, who can help you with specific strategies that work on that journey at the time and point of development that you're on, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of that journey. Being a social entrepreneur has highs and lows, right? If you like that kind of support, or were printers has a community called the aware of foreigners community, over 270 really generous and really skillful social entrepreneurs. And that's what we do with each other. We share concrete strategies, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of the journey. If you'd like to find out more, you can take a look at aware printers.com forward slash community. And thank you to everybody in the AWARE printers community who helped sponsor this podcast. So welcome back, everybody, in the second part of the show, David, where we like to joke about as putting on our social entrepreneur classes. So if you put on your social entrepreneur classes, and you just look at convert, right now, what would you say are some of the key like services you're offering products you have? Or get into the book and the film? Like, those are more recent things, but just like, What have you been doing for nine?
Paul Zelizer 26:48
Sure, well converge is a network itself, we really believe in practicing what we preach. So, you know, we started as a network of independent consultants, who wanted to partner together to make greater impact together than we could alone because there are independent consulting can be a really lonely job. And we they need folks that they can lean on and turn to and collaborate with and, and also, when you're dealing with really complex issues. Again, it's not something you can do alone. So it's so valuable to have co facilitators, co designers and community of support. Over time, we've, we've grown into the focus more and more of, of building networks ourselves or partnering with existing networks and supporting them, and then sharing those learnings across the converged network and, and finding the common patterns between them. I think that's so much of the value that we've been able to bring to this space is to work with lots of different networks that are really different in so many different ways, but identifying common patterns and creating structures and tools and different processes that can really be used across them. And, and from that work, also recognizing that, how can we expand our impact beyond our individual time, and that's really what led us and inspired us to create things like the book and like the documentary, and our toolkit, which is the open source with Creative Commons, all kinds of surveys and facilitation guides, and, and other resources that people can use and adapt to their own context, offering trainings, and like the network Leadership Series, and, and creating cohorts of more multiple network leaders so that they can learn from one another and be in a community of support themselves. So that's been our journey over the last nine years. It's really gone from you know, focus on kind of individual project by project and supporting individual networks, but then over time, how can we take what we've learned from these different experiences and and lift up those stories of network leaders who are there on the ground doing that work and, but also create different types of tools and systems of support so that more and more people can can apply these these lessons and, and practices. So they're on work?
Paul Zelizer 29:15
In many ways, the culmination of these nine years of really diving in deep and learning and supporting each other and building network has led to this book tell us a little bit about the book. Why did you write it? What's in it? And why might somebody want to get it?
Paul Zelizer 29:33
Yeah, of course, it's it really is it does. It builds on the lessons and stories from across the field. It's really seen as a culmination of works from across the field. It's, it's really not about me, it's not about converged. It's about the networks that we've learned about and the stories and network leaders who are on the ground been doing this work for so many years. And I really didn't want to write a book they shared earlier I was was really hesitant. I didn't know if it'd be worth it, I'd been I've written a number of different articles and published those in various places and thought that was, you know, enough to share just spread the word. But over time, it it really became sort of a calling, I didn't want to write a book, but I felt like I had a book and based on our learnings and our experiences, and, and I had to write it, because there wasn't anything out there that I was looking for I was getting questions from clients have different resources they could turn to and I wanted to be able to give them one thing, I kind of pulled a lot of pieces together and told the story about why this type of cross sector collaborative work is is really important. And, and that that incorporated different lessons from community organizing community building indigenous wisdom, and then also new lessons from network science and systems thinking. And within awareness of new new collaborative tools that allow us to coordinate at larger and larger scales. And it was a long process, it was a lot more work than I expected. Because of how great of feedback I received along the way, with each piece of excellent feedback from the many dozens of people that I sent out early drafts to they, they would bring up really great points and be like, dang it, this is such a good point. Now I have to rework this entire chapter. But it's so much better for it. So it really, it was the fingerprints of so many people are in the book that it incorporates all the resources I could find from from across the field. And, and then also, as I said earlier, interviews from 40 different network leaders who are really sharing their, their underground experiences. And, and, and again, it it's the the hope was to create this toolkit alongside the book so that the book really tells the story of why what and how of these impact networks. But then for those who want to go even deeper and and apply specific tools or practices to their own networks, the book links to 15 or 20, different tools, that and surveys and other guides that people can access for free through through our website. And, and so that's really meant to give everything away, that we've learned because we really believe in this the importance of of good collaboration, we believe in the importance of systemic change. And there's there's no shortage of need out there. So we really need to build this field and support people who are doing this work as much as possible.
Paul Zelizer 33:04
David's been dropping links and resources, like I'm taking notes very quickly lesson. So there'll be a link to the book and the free toolkit and some of the examples that David mentioned in the show notes. So you can find that there. So our episode title, David is referencing scaling out instead of scaling up, can you give an example just like it makes sense at a top level? What's an organization or a network that you think really was able to reach some degree of scale that's really inspiring to you? What's an example of a network that did a rock has had a very significant degree of impact, and they've done it in this scaling out kind of way.
Paul Zelizer 33:49
Well, I'll tell a little bit more about the Santa Cruz Mountains search network, because I think it's a really present an easily accessible example for people understand what it means to care for the land and why we need to care for these large landscapes. But, but often, we miss what it really takes in practice, again, we have to work across these jurisdictional boundaries to do it. And there brings together and government agencies, nonprofits, land Trust's academic institutions, timber companies, tribal groups, and to look at the whole system and to recognize the these groups again disagreed about a lot of things but that digging deeper could recognize the share to care for the land. Just one example of sort of conflict like that when you bring together timber company and environmental groups and they're sometimes see each other and different sides of issues or perceived competitors and but, but then when you share stories about what the land means for you, and why you care about the land, is actually so much commonality there and you can recognize that actually Deep down, we have a lot of shared values, even if we disagree on some of the specific ways to go about it. And, and, and from that shared care, you know, they couldn't necessarily trust each other directly yet, but they could trust, the shared care, they have the land and, and through those types of trusting relationships, and then also have a larger analysis, collective analysis of what's happening across the region and what's needed. There was a condition of groups who, one example, recognized if we really pool or different data sources together, for the first time create this massive region wide vegetation map really looks at the whole region, look at the different watersheds and the the different parts of the land where good stewardship on land doesn't all mean, having one strategy, it's really a mosaic approach, this part of land is going to be really good for preservation, this part of lands can really be good for working lands, this part of the land is really high risk. So we need to protect it really well. This part of the land can be really good for sustainable timber. And so looking at the whole system, and an understanding where the different types of strategies can apply in different places, but also in identifying places that are really high risk for catastrophic wildfire. And that's something that affects all the different groups kind of regardless of what they believe that. And so they pulled together these data sources created this vegetation map that that is really reducing the risk of catastrophic wildfire, which is a huge issue in the region. But another example, which is really about that scaling out pieces. And there were a number of groups who recognized through through conversation that the permitting processes for important ecological restoration work was about the same about as burdensome and challenging as it is for the permitting process for building a new condo. And, and so a lot of important environmental restoration work that was really time sensitive, was getting brought down or put on hold. Because of these, these really difficult permitting processes. And so a group put in the network kind of spun that up partnered with a larger network of which is called the California landscape stewardship network, which is really a collaboration of 30 different networks across the state of California, including the Santa Cruz Mountains network. And, and eventually then through the power there that clicked a voice and brought it to a state level. Where this this initiative, which is now called cutting green tape, is is a major piece in it's a major priority for the state of California as a whole. And they're actively reducing the burdensome permitting processes for this important environmental restoration work like restoring a creek bed, for example. And one more example, which really speaks to why networks can can be so important not in it's always in future planning, but in responding to really critical threats or opportunities. The back to the wildfires at the height of the 2020 wildfires, which were hit the region extremely hard.
Paul Zelizer 38:29
There was the CCU lightning complex wildfire which took over a month to contain. Over that time, 86,000 acres burned in both San Mateo and Santa Cruz counties. And as the fire went on more for first with Santa Cruz County than in San Mateo County. And because of this discrepancy, the San Mateo resource conservation conservation district RCD which is a governmental agency, which is usually constrained by jurisdictional boundaries, the San Mateo RCD had been had a bit of extra capacity, and so they immediately sent their staff across county lines to support Santa Cruz's post fire recovery work. The executive director of the San Mateo RCD was a founding member of the Santa Cruz Mountains stewardship network, and had formed a relationship with the Santa Cruz RCD director through this network that the San Mateo director said it was a direct quote, we'll figure out the problems with county boundaries later we'll just find a way and meanwhile the the Santa Cruz RCD he was also a member the network was they were so busy responding to the fire that they really didn't have the bandwidth to raise resources for their efforts. And so to provide help San Mateo past 80% of the funding they received from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service to Santa Cruz with no assurance that that funding would ever come back at one another Vote, because I think this leader says it better than than I could. The director of the sanitary RCD says that wouldn't have happened without the kinds of relationships and conditions that the network provides. She says, quote, the network makes us think about why it benefits all of us to work at a landscape scale and to work across boundaries and across sectors, even if there isn't an immediate return on that investment. We're continually looking for how to make it work instead of focusing on what won't. And those are the types of changes that there's not a single organization, if we grow bigger and bigger organization or governmental agency, it's going to make the difference. It's really by strengthen the connections, and the relationships and the opportunities and ways for folks to communicate and coordinate with one another across systems, we can really strengthen the system as a whole without having to grow bigger and bigger organization.
Paul Zelizer 40:51
Thanks for those great examples, David, really appreciate it. So you've done a lot in nine years, I mean, a lot, and congratulations, and thank you for all your great work. And you don't strike me as somebody who just like gonna put your feet up on the coffee table and like, say, Okay, well, now I'm done. Where do you see converge going, as you look ahead two, or three or five years,
Paul Zelizer 41:15
I think converge is is going to look at more and more of how we can scale our impact beyond individual projects. And so I think that's looking more and more at, you know, providing trainings, providing communities of practice for network leaders, creating more toolkits, creating more content that can that can be shared broadly. So I think that's where convergence can be headed, and also bringing more people into the converged network as well to partner on projects. Me personally, I'm, I've been exploring more and more the space of Dows, these decentralized autonomous organizations that, that are really building that the next evolution of the Internet, which is web three, and internet that is really collectively owned, and where, you know, we we don't have these giant gatekeepers, like Facebook, or Google or whatever it is, Twitter, who are you know, we're having to use these services to connect with one another, or share information, and they own all of our data and etc. And I'm really curious how we can, we can build an internet that we have control of our own data and, and the people, we have collective ownership and the things that we're contributing to, which I think is the promise of daos that, that people can join these decentralized organizations contributed to them, and also participate in the decision making processes for that organization and really become, create a different distinction that organizations don't have to be hierarchies with people at the top, making decisions and passing orders down. Well, resources and benefits flow up. But really making organizations more like networks themselves. Where we're, again, decision making history of distributed leadership is distributed ownership is shared. So that's really what I'm looking to pursue more personally, is to help strengthen that ecosystem so that we can have more equitable, more collectively owned types of organizations and, and, and communities.
Paul Zelizer 43:32
Our listeners, David, our impact founders, and people who are really interested in having impact at scale and listeners had, again, there will be links to the book, to the free toolkit to the film to this leadership series and network Leadership Series, all that in the show notes. So we got some great resources. If you were wanting to pass on some wisdom of what you've learned in this incredible journey of, you know, decade and a half of really thinking about networks to somebody who that's very exciting to but it's new, and they're trying to wrap their brain How do I keep going with what I'm doing right now to pay the bills, but bring more of this into my work? What suggestions would you have other than buy the book and listeners go buy the book
Paul Zelizer 44:20
that the clearest and simplest one I can share is that, from my perspective, it's all about relationships that networks again, at their most basic, our webs of relationships, connecting people are things so and networks are only as strong as the connections that tie them together, and the flows that are moving through those connections. So really, if at any point, you are unsure about how to proceed in this work, invest in relationships. To be a network leader is really first and foremost about weaving the threads that tie us together and building stronger systems really comes down to strengthening connections, creating spaces for people to come together and share their different perspectives to, to engage in generative conflict and identify places where we do agree. And we can work together, ROI or invest in a return on relationships. That's really how fragmented systems can become creative, and adaptive and interconnected holes.
Paul Zelizer 45:24
Thanks so much, David. And I love RLR. And listeners, I'm part of several ecosystems, whether it's work on climate, you know, group that meets on Slack, there's 10,000 Plus folks impact folks who are really passionate about making progress and climb in share help people find jobs, there's a section for people who are content creator, like just an incredibly generous network at scale, doing incredible things or bringing together impact podcasters, which is something I'm working on right now. Just a huge part of my own thinking and training as well. And David, I can't like celebrate, and you know, the audio only podcast, you can't see my face in my hands in the air saying yes, but I'm saying yes, Dustin, return on relationships. So thank you so much, David. It's been fabulous. having you on the show. Really appreciate the work you're doing.
Paul Zelizer 46:17
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity and the invitation.
Paul Zelizer 46:23
So again, listeners lots of links in the show notes. David dropped all kinds of resources and wisdom for us go check out the shownotes. Before we go, I just want to remind you, we love listener suggested topics and guests. If you have an idea for a guest or a topic on the show, go to the AWARE printers website. And on our contact page, we have three simple guidelines, we try to be really transparent about who we're looking for, and once a good fit. If you read those and you say, wow, I've got a great idea. It's a bit please send it on it. So for now, I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care in these intense times. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our world.