264 | Employee Resource Groups: An Authentic Path to Change with Farzana Nayani
Our guest this week on the pod is Farzana Nayani. Farzana is a recognized Diversity, Equity and Inclusion specialist, coach and keynote speaker. She has worked with Fortune 500 corporations, public agencies, higher education institutions, and non-profit organizations. Her newest book is titled The Power of Employee Resource Groups.
And a special thanks to Saybrook Business Administration programs for sponsoring this episode!
Resources mentioned in this episode include:
Employee Resource Groups: An Interview with Author and Thought Leader Farzani Nayani
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
SPEAKERS
Paul Zelizer, Farzana Nayani
Paul Zelizer 00:02
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of the Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who has market tested experience and is already transforming many lives. Before I introduce our guests and our topic today, I have one request. If you could go over to Apple podcasts or whatever app you're listening to the show on do a rating and review it helps tremendously. Thank you so much for considering it. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Farzana Nayani, and our topic is Employee Resource Groups: An Authentic Path to Change. Farzana is a recognized Diversity Equity and Inclusion specialist coach and keynote speaker. She has worked with Fortune 500 companies, public agencies, higher education institutions and nonprofit organizations. Her newest book is titled The Power of Employee Resource Groups. Farzana, welcome to the show.
Farzana Nayani 01:06
Thanks so much, Paul. So great to be here.
Paul Zelizer 01:09
It’s an exciting topic. And in over 250 episodes. We've never talked about employee resource groups. So we have the right person on the show today. I can't wait to share more. Thank you. Before we get into what they are and why they can be helpful, Farzana, one of the ways we like to get to know people is to ask you about a wellness or resiliency practice that you personally use to help you, you know, staying with this important, but not always easy work.
Farzana Nayani 01:35
Definitely, you know, one thing that I tend to do is I tend to go out in nature, and go for a walk. And for some of us that can be more accessible than others. But I found that even going into my backyard, or you know, walking by Bush of my neighbors, and just feeling the energy, kind of leave my body and move into the world around me, is a really restorative practice, I really recommend people literally stop and smell the roses, I actually do that. And it's not just cliche, it really does help, you know, awaken, awaken your senses and bring you back to a grounded state. So I really recommend that to everyone.
Paul Zelizer 02:20
So you've got a long history of caring about business, small business, women owned business, you've done a lot of work there. If somebody wasn't familiar with you kind of like the work you did. That was a stepping stone or a precursor to the work you do now, what would they need to know about your professional background to get a sense of what you're bringing to the work you do now?
Farzana Nayani 02:44
Great question. As I was reflecting on this, and thinking about what has led me to my career now, as a diversity, equity and inclusion specialist, one thing I really attribute this to is my own identity. So my ethnic background is that my mother's from the Philippines, and my father's from Pakistan. And growing up, I really felt that the awareness and understanding of different cultures was something important to me, it was natural. And as I proceeded into my career through education and supporting small business owners, that connection really was around how to communicate across differences and, you know, create that understanding. And so for the majority of my career, I've been focused on creating that connection in amongst communities and creating access. And actually early on in my career, I was a small business counselor myself. So I was a small business advisor with a Women's Business Center, and helped perform services for small businesses through the SBA, and over time, developed relationships with the community and work for a chamber of commerce, and eventually spun out and actually did my own business. So in the 20 years of work around diversity, equity and inclusion and access for communities, I've also been able to found my own business. So about five years ago, I took the leap, and went out on my own and became an entrepreneur and along with that became a woman and minority certified business. So definitely, the journey about being an entrepreneur is something that I relate to and resonates with me today.
Paul Zelizer 04:27
Congratulations on five years. That's very exciting. Thank you. Employee Resource Groups. Let's just start this is something that might be much more better known or more familiar in corporate spaces, given that we tend to be in a social entrepreneur and maybe not organizations with 100,000 employees. That's not our typical listener may be less familiar to some of our listeners. So what are Employee Resource Groups?
Farzana Nayani 04:55
Employee Resource Groups are networks of individuals have a similar demographic background. And that could be similar race or gender could be that you're also a veteran or your parent or you're someone who has common experiences around mental health, or neurodiversity, and they're nicknamed er G's. So you may hear that term emojis. And they're also called employee networks, or affinity groups. And these networks and groups really serve organizations to build a community within a company to foster belonging for people of generally underrepresented identities, and also to support allyship for people who aren't a part of that demographic to not only participate and contribute, but to learn about how to cultivate belonging, equity, access and inclusion for these groups. So you might see a group called the Black employee resource group, or the Asian affinity group where they lead next left in a Heritage Group and so on. And those are common or the Women's Network, or you could see, you know, I've seen even ones that are for minority identities in that liquor company, they had an erg, for non drinkers, which I thought was really interesting. So anywhere where there's a majority culture, and then you have a minority group that could you know, benefit from fostering support is how it looks. And it can be in startups or major corporations, nonprofits, even university campuses have them.
Paul Zelizer 06:32
I'm so glad you brought in the language of affinity groups in the more progressive circles that I've worked in for 30 plus years. Now, that might be a more familiar term. So what would happen in a typical employee resource group, like, how often do they meet? What tends to happen if somebody was at a meeting, like, again, assuming or listeners aren't real familiar, like, how do they tend to work?
Farzana Nayani 06:57
Generally, employee resource groups have leadership, like a chair or co chair, and a committee of officers, maybe a handful of people that guide the group. And these leaders can be pointed or they can be, you know, volunteered. And what happens is the group comes together and starts to plan events and programs for their heritage group or their identity group. And the groups can can put together events, and they could be social events, or networking events or a mentorship program. But they also serve a really strategic point in companies where people can go to them for how to reach out to different markets, or how to, you know, foster relationships with the community, around charitable causes, and even market to different people of different backgrounds. So they actually serve a number of different purposes, but they generally tend to meet at least once a month. And the cadence is usually that the leaders plan and you know, have their own meetings, and then there's a general membership meeting. And that's when anyone from the company is allowed to come. There are definitely more focused events, if you are of a particular background, of course, but generally, they are open to everyone and anyone can participate. So that's how general you know schedule looks. But they can also vary from company to company and from region to region.
Paul Zelizer 08:33
And when they're working well, what would you say are some of the real successes you've seen with your T's employee resource groups.
Farzana Nayani 08:42
So I actually outline this and in my new book called The Power of employee resource groups, and I have a model in there called the five Ps model. And one of the main components of running an erg is making sure we pay attention to these five P's. And the first one is purpose. So a really good rubric to to measure against is is the purpose clear, I also start to talk about people and this key stakeholders involved with employee resource groups, the processes that could be in place or maybe need attention. And along with that the priorities for the group, ie what are the key objectives or goals for the company for the organization and the group itself? And then finally, how we plan so these things all come together to help frame your GES and I think without this, you know, broader focus, sometimes we end up just doing events from month to month, right? And I'm sure we've seen, you know, the need for reaction to the news and current events and some tragedies. And so Iraqis are usually on standby to create space for people of those communities, which you know, they are a part of, but they can also be more are formalized. And those are called business resource groups where they are strategic and have some initiatives and actions related to the bottom line. So there's quite a range actually of how they look and how they operate.
Paul Zelizer 10:14
And give us a couple examples of some you thought like, they're really rocking it, they're doing awesome as an employee resource group.
Farzana Nayani 10:22
There are a couple of examples I write about in my book, and one I talk about is Clorox. And some of you may or may not know that Clorox owns a number of different brands, even own food brands, but one of their popular brands is the Brita filter, which I'm sure we've all come into contact with at one point or another. And what happened was, Clorox decided to engage the energies to create innovation at the company. And they asked their energies to come up with some new product lines or ideas. And actually, the Asian employee research group came up with the idea of making the Brita filter, the British jug read. And what happened was that was in alignment with Lunar New Year and the launch was successful, and these jugs actually flew off the shelves. So that's one example of how it can really align with with products and marketing. Also, 18 t had done some initial tests of some, you know, new cell phones, and had partnered with their Latin next year G to have an event where they could launch the event and actually, you know, have people touch and feel the product and have a giveaway associated with that. So that created a lot of excitement in jazz around it. You also see some other groups like women's employee research group, maybe work together around networking, and also mentorship and have walking meetings with executives, which I thought were really great, or a pipeline for people experiencing homelessness, I was working with a company called PF candle CO, which you may see in places like Target and elsewhere. And they had a really interesting initiative to help people who were repositioning themselves after having experienced homelessness. And I thought that was really great. So there are a lot of initiatives that involve the company and also a career pipeline as well.
Paul Zelizer 12:26
And when somebody is a participant, say, it's a ERG, for women, or an en je for Latin X folk, like what tends to happen for somebody who is in that smaller group within the larger culture of the company, and they show up regularly, and they participate, and they're active, and they're giving innovative ideas, what tends to happen for them in their professional trajectory.
Farzana Nayani 12:52
There's actually studies that show that a person's experience of belonging is directly related to their satisfaction at the company. And that translates into company loyalty and productivity and performance. And what we're seeing now with a great resignation is that that's even more and more important, because people who don't feel connected to where they work will leave. Or they'll, you decide not to work at all, quite frankly. So what we're seeing is that not only do your G's, create that, you know, connection and safety net, for people who might be experiencing, you know, the commonalities of having the same identity or microaggressions, or bias or, you know, just having the community around them. But they also are strategic and helping attract new talent and retain the existing talent as well. So, from many levels, it's just, it's really beautiful to see how they work. And personally, I've seen energies that have come together and become friends. And there's just a lot of relationships that come out of them. So they're just definitely so beneficial for anyone that come into contact with them.
Paul Zelizer 14:07
So some of the things I'm hearing, if I'm listening, well, I'm hearing you say, done well, your genes contribute to more retainment. In other words, people want to stay in the company, they feel like they belong, they have a place if there is a microaggression to kind of unpack it and say, oh my gosh, this was hard helped me think about how to respond here. It's also can be really helpful in terms of recruitment of other folks. So a lot of companies are trying to increase their diversity among their employees, and it can be really helpful for that as well. Is that fair to say?
Farzana Nayani 14:39
Absolutely. And there's so many parts to it that I think people don't even leverage or No, I think people see employee resource groups at the beginning as being you know, a social networking place. Like we're gonna have lunch and learn or you know, a mixer, but it can really go beyond that and and really proved to be something that changes people's lives. I was coaching someone who works at McDonald's. And she actually was looking at a career change for moving from working with the franchise owners to actually doing something in house in corporate and headquarters. And she came to me with with the question of how do I do this. And we discovered together that she was a part of not only the black ERG, but also the women's era G. And she could identify two leaders in each of those groups that she could tap for a networking conversation. And believe it or not, Paul, I ran into her a year later, and she was thriving in a new role and was glowing, and just really benefited from those connections she made through her Employee Resource Groups.
Paul Zelizer 15:46
That's fabulous. Now, it isn't all rosy. There are some criticisms about employee resource groups and among our community, one of the things that one of the concerns I sometimes hear in the impact space, is that some companies are using employee resource groups as a way to like say, Look, we care about diversity, equity inclusion, we're not going to do anything else. But we're going to start these groups that people can come and share concerns. There's no money involved, we're not going to do anything structurally. And sometimes they are. Just like there's greenwashing. There's dei washing, right. And sometimes companies use them in that way, whether it was intended or not, functionally, it's like, we're not going to do the hard work, we're not going to hire somebody like you Farzana or somebody who's been doing this work for a long time and help us look at those proactive what's going on in terms of culture and policy so that we can have an more inclusive environment. We're just gonna say we did the ERG, we're taking care of the AI, check the box move on and nothing changes. Have you ever seen that? And how can somebody determine if this is a real this is part of a larger commitment and accompany or this might be one of those impact washing kinds of er, G's?
Farzana Nayani 17:05
Great question. And I think that delineation of whether a group that is formed is performative or not, is is the key to the question, right? So why was the employee resource group created? Is it something the employees wanted? Is it a form of pacifying outspoken individuals that accompany right so that the company itself doesn't have to deal with a greater graver dei issues, and I have seen time and time again, in my consulting work, how employee resource groups, because of the identities that the members and leaders hold, tend to know what to do in a time of crisis, or to do with equity and inclusion and belonging, and are working overtime, right, on volunteer hours on on, you know, at the side of their desk, to initiate and follow through with dei initiatives, when really it's just not their job. And I've had to personally tell people and have a coming to awareness moment, with some energy members and leaders to say, look like you need to draw a healthy boundary here. This is not your role, you are an engineer, or you're an accountant, or you're, you know, whatever you do at your job. And this is this is supposed to be supportive of you, anything di related should come from senior leadership. And that's, that's a hard conversation to have. At the same time, you know, we've got to push leaders to inform themselves, a lot of people don't know about employee resource groups or about Dei. So I'm really supportive of that education and action. And in my consulting work, that's mainly what I do is work through action and strategy and assessing organizations of you know, where they're at, and what will work for them. So I do give that grace. However, I think people are doing it to pacify a group, but it does rub people the wrong way. And they can tell. And, you know, I hear about the dirty secret. So I had a company reached out to me this year, I won't say their name, they're pretty well known. And with the uptick in anti Asian racism, their employees were really upset and wanted to start an erg, for Asian employees. And they came to me and said, You know what? We can we wanted to do this a year ago, it was asked of us, and now we want to do it again. But they contacted me in April, which is a month before, again, Asian Pacific Islander Heritage Month. And guess what, I didn't hear from them again. So if they're used as a tool to again, just be performative people can tell. And it won't actually create the impact that you want to have. And at the same time, it's just, it's, you know, disadvantaging your employees when there is that hope, of something that can be made for them, but actually, it never was intended in the first Place, which is disappointing.
Paul Zelizer 20:03
Thanks so much for unpacking that for us. So on the individual member of an erg, or maybe as a group, you're working with them to help set boundaries. And I love that reminder, that awareness Farzana that, hey, this is supposed to be a support for you not like lots of free labor to try to change a culture that maybe is very resistant to that change. So I love that reminder. And listeners, I hope you notice that a purpose of a good ERD that they're there to help folks and support folks. And if somebody's working hard to do lots of labor per Dei, then something structurally wrong. Thanks for pointing that out. Now, if I'm a leader Farzana, and I'm like, okay, that makes sense. There wants to be larger dei work from the leadership in terms of company wide. And then the ERG can be incredibly supportive to folks who have that identity like helped me as a leader, they just how would I be skillful? If I really am committed to creating a diverse and inclusive environment? How do I be skillful about how to balance that how to think about what I'm doing? What we're doing, as a company for Dei, work company wide? And what's happening with the erg? And what's the experience of people in that group? And then in the larger company? Does that make sense? What I'm asking?
Farzana Nayani 21:29
Absolutely. And leaders have a lot of power and positionality to foster these groups being formed, and also their success. And I think the first thing to think about is, again, what is the purpose of them, I have an additional framework in my book, which talks about the pillars of IR G's, and Dei. And the first one has to do with workforce. So if we're looking at the different workforce elements that we discussed earlier about retention and recruitment of candidates that's absolutely needed. Secondly, is workplace so thinking about how to create a positive organizational culture that is inclusive and one that people feel a part of. Thirdly, there's the marketplace, which is reaching out to new communities or groups that you haven't had access to or want to be more mindful of, like, in some of the examples I gave earlier, that's marketplace. The fourth one is community and the charitable causes and philanthropy philanthropy that company wants to do your job can be a bridge to that. And then lastly, there's the idea of supplier diversity, which we don't talk a lot about, but absolutely has a deep connection to entrepreneurs and small business owners who want to do business with big business. So your cheese can help create that pathway as well. So there are a lot of strategic imperatives around the why. And I think if leaders are are keen on exploring these further, what they should do is make sure that there's a structure in place to support that your GS, makes sure there are executive sponsors that mentor and guide them. And they also should really think about how to reward and compensate your G leaders, you don't necessarily have to pay. But perhaps there's a way to offer recognition and some elements in a performance review where there is, you know, that recognition and reward. So I think there's a lot that leaders can think about, and truly, it's a place of creative possibility.
Paul Zelizer 23:38
Super helpful. Thanks for sharing that with us. So let's do this in a moment. I want to come back and hear like how this actually works in your business, balancing the consulting and the book and ERG work and work with leaders. And some of the exciting things you're gonna share with us something that's about to just go live maybe is live right when this is launching. Before we do that, I just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. I'm excited to announce that we have a new sponsor for the pot, Saybrook University. Saybrook University prepares students to challenge conventional thinking in business, social structures, mental and physical health and more. They have innovative online and hybrid programs to help students become part of a global community. They offer certificate, Master and doctoral programs, and they're guided by renowned faculty with years of experience in their respective fields. Saybrook is committed to helping students achieve their full potential and their sacred community is deeply rooted in this humanistic tradition. Sacred graduates are transforming healthcare providing organizational leadership, developing sustainable practices, and caring for populations and be open to business and non business majors like say bricks 100% online Master of Business Administration Program is designed for students who are passionate about conducting business operations guided by the principles of sustainable social impact. Their hybrid online Doctor of Business Administration Program is designed for experienced professionals who are interested in exploring and applying the most recent research and theories regarding organizational and social systems change. You can learn more@saybrook.edu There's a link in the show notes. And thank you to Saybrook University for sponsoring this pot. So welcome back, everybody. In the second part of the show, Farzana, we like to joke about putting on our entrepreneur classes. So if you just put on your entrepreneur classes and look at your own business, right now, give us a sense of like, what's on the ground? Like, what types of companies are you working with? Do you have a team, how much of your energy goes towards the book that you just launched, and this new, exciting website that just is going live, right, just give us a sense of revenue streams, types of clients you tend to work with, etc, etc.
Farzana Nayani 26:10
Absolutely. So I do consulting work, the majority of the work I do involves helping organizations, usually corporations, or higher education institutions, or nonprofits with achieving their goals. And in addition to that, I do speaking engagements and coaching, and when I'm finding in the current season, is that some of that is pivoting, I'm seeing actually a contraction around the massive organizational urgency that happened post the, the tragic murder of George Floyd. And that friendliness has died down. But out of the ashes, we're seeing these really long term strategic and sustainable initiatives. And so I'm getting pulled into how we coach people to think about their own personal development, in addition to the organization, which I find really fascinating. In terms of my own business, I do have a team, I have a core team that work with me, and who are very dear to me, and couldn't do anything without. And I also have a number of facilitators who I contract out depending on the project, and they are advisors and colleagues as well. So the balance of that really is looking at, you know, the future. And part of it is I'm seeing a real need to create accessible resources. And that is why I've, you know, started to put together a number of different avenues for that. And in terms of revenue streams or access, it would be in addition to my live speaking engagements, which if you think about are limited to the groups that hire me, or to conferences, which, you know, for many people, there's a barrier of costs, right? When you look at a corporate conference for professional development, they're hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And quite frankly, some people don't have the budget for that. So in part of my mission around accessible and, and approachable ways of engaging with content, I'm in the middle of production around some new courses, some new materials and tools. And all of that is culminating in the creation and launch of a new brand called energy dynamics. And folks can find that at energy dynamics.com. In there, you'll, you'll get access to a number of different resources, including podcasts like this, where I share thought leadership and tools that are, you know, a range from free downloads to videos that people can buy. So a lot of that is in efforts to really streamline the conversation around this. If you look there, there's a lot of great academic research and case studies, and a lot of business oriented conversation around this. But for the general leader, it's really hard to go into an article and pull out those key nuggets. So that's the goal of this resource hub, and I'm so excited that I'm able to launch that.
Paul Zelizer 29:22
Congratulations and listeners, it should be live right as this episode goes live. So again, we'll put the link in the show notes, erg dynamics.com. So one of the questions I have for your present is like that's a lot of different balls in the air from consulting and you wrote a book and you're out marketing and now and you're launching this new site to help people understand DRGs better and you're working in these longer term ways and you're doing speaking like, what can you share? A lot of our listeners have multiple interests and have multiple offerings. What can you share about what you've learned about how to be How to live a balanced life when you have that many things going on,
Farzana Nayani 30:04
priorities are key. And I've really spent a lot of effort into thinking about clarity of, again, what is my own purpose and what's the best way I can reach people. And I've started to cut out things that don't bring me joy, I've started started to cut out things that I think I have less impact and and I've had to make some difficult decisions around things that I like to do versus places where I could create a lot of impact. And I've, I've taken a hard look in the audience's that I tend to have more impact with our corporations, and they are nonprofits, and they are major agencies. And so some of those smaller gigs that I would do, you know, the good thing is I can refer them out, or I can find a way to, to serve that need and in different ways. But it's, it's been a hard lesson for me to really think about what, you know, spreading myself too thin is not actually in the service of the best for anybody. Right. So that's why I've come up with the idea and the initiative and in the pivot towards creating content, that's it's accessible, you know, through audio, video and, and readership. And I think, you know, thinking of myself more as a thought leader and a content creator, in addition to a business person has been major, the work that I do, and a reflection I've had is that I take big concepts that are hard to understand and make them easy for people to really get. And so you know, the way that I think the listeners here today can look at what's the priority is, you know, where are you making the best impact? Where are you making the biggest splash and cut out the things that aren't as productive?
Paul Zelizer 31:54
That's great advice. Farzana. And I love your languaging of that, the things that you like, versus what has the biggest impact and listeners, you've sometimes heard me joke about my spiritual highlighter on a pull out my spiritual highlighter. Right? Just because you like doing it or you know, you're pretty good at it, you're very good at it may not be the most impact. And I love that that is the measuring stick. You're using Prasanna, and I want our listeners to really pay attention. And notice that is there anything you could share? Because Because obviously, I'm a podcaster, I have been, you know, I'm deeply aligned with what you're saying here that that there's only so many people I can work with one on one or a group or even our membership community, which has, I don't know, 260 members these days, there's only so much I can do is one person working in a in a more high touch kind of way. And this podcast is one of my like attempts to like I want to be I want not everybody has easy access to really impact oriented entrepreneurs, who are making a big splash to use your word, and are also living a quality life in terms of paying the bills, I have more than the average amount, I'm just blessed to be able to have contact and be in conversations. And this podcast is one of my primary examples of trying to go out beyond who I can help in a more higher touch way, and make it more accessible and make it more inclusive. Because a podcast like if you have any device and any internet connection at all, it's one of the lowest bandwidth ways of using the internet, compared to let's say something like video, which is also very powerful, but you need much more just better equipment and a better internet connection. So I just want to dig a little deeper what you said there partisan and going from an entrepreneur to like thought leader and really leveraging the power of content, can you can you share with us a little more like what does it look like to do that? Well, and what has shifted in your mind in some little more nuance, when you were thinking about your work more in these, like I do speaking gigs where I can consult with somebody. And now you're thinking about, Oh, I can create these more leveraged offerings that can allow more people to learn, and don't have to have high touch all the time. That's such an important point. And how can you help our listeners think about how to do that? Well.
Farzana Nayani 34:30
I was in a business networking group, and I'm so grateful for having community like that, like you have here. And they had invited a speaker to come in and talk to us about our social media presence and just how we're using it. And I'm pretty active on social media. So you know, I was coming in with an open mind. But what I learned from that is it's not about what you want to sell or you want to do. It's about people getting to know you. And what happens is the shift, shift occurs where you're struggling, you're banging on doors aren't open for you, in the shift that occurs is when people come to you. And I think that was a complete mind. transformation for me, where I realize, you know, the best experiences I've had have been when people have come to me because the earnestly, number one know me, and number two need help. And number three, know that I can help them. That right there, I think is a good screening process for clients, for customers for ourselves. And the thing that we miss is when we're constantly trying to adapt ourselves to fit other people, what we really should do is get to know ourselves, put put that out there and have that identity clear in the value we create really transparent. So people come to us, and I'll tell you early on, I was doing the former, I was bending myself in all kinds of ways, like a like a pretzel, right to try to work with people that just weren't a good fit, because I saw it as income or I saw it as an opportunity. And I wanted to help but it wasn't the right fit. And it wasn't until I think I matured in that journey, and really had some sophistication around who I am as a person and coming to know that and, you know, some hard reflection, that I feel a lot more confident in who I am. And I think that confidence breeds that attraction for people. So that has helped me with with people that, you know, come to work for me, the clearer I am, the better that they can, you know, show up because we're in alignment with clients. You know, we've all had those tough clients that is like, Why did I take this on. But the clearer I am, the more in alignment that becomes and I haven't had issues with that. So knowing ourselves and knowing our value and and putting it out there with our personal brand is key.
Paul Zelizer 37:07
Great advice. Thank you. So personally, you really planted your flag in the Employee Resource Group space, you just came out with a book with it link in the show notes, you just want this website, ERG dynamics, link in the well in the show notes, where it's like you have a front row seat to what's happening in this employee resource group space, where if you look ahead three to five years in where employee resource groups have been where they are now, and I know you don't have a crystal ball. But if you just kind of plot on a graph and you have you know, a bunch of data points, you can have some sense that somebody who doesn't have those earlier data points probably would be more surprised where things are going just using your best sense of where the fields been where it is now, in the conversation you're hearing among people who are leaders in the Employee Resource Group space, what kinds of things are you thinking we're likely newer developments in this space, three to five years from now.
Farzana Nayani 38:10
It definitely has to do with coming out of the idea of silos and identities being, you know, monolithic and thinking about how we traverse different groups at the same time. And what that is called and identity terms or diversity terms is intersectionality. It's how we have more than one thing that is a deep part of us, for example, if someone is queer identified, and it is also black, or if someone is, you know, a parent and is also a veteran, right? So how do we serve those groups. And I think up until now, we have done it individually in those narrow and and direct funnels. But really, there's this overlap that is occurring. And I have a visual diagram of it in my book, and I wish I could unpack it more, but it's really conceptional is really intellectual. But it's also really simple in that we can't just silo people into one group or another. And so I really want to push us to think about how do we be more inclusive of someone, let's say who's Asian, but actually, they're adopted. So maybe inside they feel like they have more of a white identity, right? Or someone who is experiencing you know, what it's like to to have, you know, a mental health experience and an identity related to any struggle or or symptoms with that. And we're seeing an uptick in the launch of emojis to do with neurodiversity. So I think that's another area that is expansive and really should be looked at. Although it's been here this whole time, right? We just haven't had The groups associated with it. So I'm really excited to see where this will all go. But I think we have to take a hard look at how we even categorize people. Right, which is the problem in the first place. But as we're doing it, can we be more inclusive and have that intersection the weaving together, and quite frankly, also the solidarity amongst groups. So it's not a, an Olympics of oppression. It's not a competition. It's a coming together. And I think we can do that.
Paul Zelizer 40:30
Super helpful. Thank you. So that's where the general field is going. Where do you see your journey? And going like, do you see, get these exciting new initiatives, the book new website, like do you see growing a larger team? Do you see helping more people through the thought leadership and the products and more leverage things you're offering? Where do you think you'll be three to five years from now?
Farzana Nayani 40:57
Definitely want to see the brand grow, I want your gees to become a household name. So, you know, for those of us who have never heard it before, I would, I would like to have it more commonplace, right. And the way to do that is to get get the idea out there to get the brand out there to get the reach. And as for my team, I'm looking at realigning who's doing what and making sure we're all in the same boat and paddling in the same direction together. So there's some pivoting going on there, because we've been heavy client work oriented, right, and very much, you know, dei, General. And I think that what I'm seeing coming down the pipeline is this, this focus on employee resource groups. In the past two years, again, due to the uptick in anti Asian racism, there is between 50 to 100, new Asian energies formed just in the past while and I know this, because I am an advisor to a group called the Asian leaders Alliance, and they have supported the formation of your GS during these difficult moments. So I can only imagine right, what is going on in any community everywhere, as as different needs to occur. And then also as groups are forming, and people are feeling confident and celebratory of their identities. So I just think that this is the path of the future. There's a lot of tech around this too, by the way, if folks are interested in and looking at new markets, there's a lot of opportunity for tech in solutions around this. And it's you know, emerging for sure there's some key players, but definitely need some solutions there. So I think that there's a lot of possibility, but for me, you know, making sure we stay on that course and ride it out, I think is an excellent start.
Paul Zelizer 42:51
Awesome. So what I think I'm hearing parmesan and what I've been trying to lean into a little bit more for our listeners sake, it sounds to me like you've gone from a more generalist, di very high quality, very thoughtful dei services in these more higher touch ways. And you're specializing, you're really leaning into the ERG aspect of what you're doing, for example, book, the new site, building out with that awareness, product services that have that more nuance, not that you're getting rid of what you had done, but there's definitely a degree of clarity that we've done other interviews with other dei books that I haven't heard that same kind of specialty. And just this morning, we launched an episode, it was a solo episode that's talking about how to grow an impact business in challenging economic times. Right? Are we in a recession or not? Not for me to say, but there's certainly a lot of talk about it. We know inflation is really high around the world. There's a lot of supply chain disruptions, etc, etc. When our listeners are thinking about growing, I look at what you're doing. And from my business impact mind, I'm like, That's smart. Pay Attention listeners, that generalists might have more struggles in challenging economic times than somebody who's got something that they're really well known for. First of all, is that is that a fair characterization of the journey you've been on? Let me just pause and then you could say shut up. Ah, that's not true.
Farzana Nayani 44:29
Well, I love being associated with being an impact business. And I'd like to, you know, adopt that moving forward, if that's okay with you, and I'll give you full credit. That's,
Paul Zelizer 44:41
that's growing that's blowing up all over the world. And I'm part of the movement but that's not i It's not my IP. And anyway, yeah,
Farzana Nayani 44:48
I'll give it to you though. And I think what you described is really focusing on again, the strengths but the market In my case, in diversity, equity and inclusion, it is an oversaturated market. And it's hard for the consumer, any client, anyone in need to distinguish between someone who's been a practitioner for many years, and someone who's brand new, which also has a lot of value, but they're having trouble discerning, you know, who's, who's the right fit. And so what I'm seeing again, and looking at where I'm spending time, and spending a lot of time explaining, number one, what I do, number two, why people should choose me, and number three, seeing if it's a fit, right. And I want to cut that all out. So I think that there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of noise and interference in our communication channels around what dei is what it should look like. And, you know, we could debate this, you know, to the end of time, we also are seeing some, you know, initiatives that aren't making the impact, right. So I am going to put my eggs in this basket and say this is what I do want to stand for. It is absolutely an alignment of what I believe in, which is the upliftment of underserved communities that have been historically excluded. And at the same time, I really want to push the field to look at, you know, what has been done so far? And where can we take them? I think that there's a lot of just, you know, this is how it's been done. And so be it. And I want us to advance the conversation. There are companies that have advanced the conversation, but they've receded. And I have a model in my book about how to look at, it's not a hockey stick growth, for diversity, you don't just do something, and then it takes off. There are seasons to this there are, you know, receding moments where we have to kind of contract and then go back out again. And the way that companies have designed, any initiative, is looking for that perpetual growth, and it's leading to burnout. So this conversation that you and I are having Paul is one that is more advanced, and I don't get a chance to have because we're so busy in the grinder. We're in the washing machine, you know, agitator of diversity and what it means. And I just want to go right past all of that, right to what the vision is for the future. And whoever wants to come with me Come with me because we need to, I think skip over all of the stuff that's not working.
Paul Zelizer 47:35
Listeners, I hope you appreciate the wisdom that Barsana just give you. Similar in the impact business space, social entrepreneurship, it's absolutely blown up in the past 10 years. And for those folks who are very wide angle and very high touch it can be a high burnout, really stressful situation. And those folks like yourself Marzano who really land in the keep the deep roots of the work, I don't hear you discarding you care just as much as ever, maybe more of really making a difference in terms of diversity, diversity, equity inclusion, but you're doing it in a way that has evolved, rather than, Hey, it's 20 years ago, or 10 years ago. So listeners, I hope you hear the wisdom. And I hope you can find your own expression of that kind of more evolved or more understanding in the marketplace that we're in right now, those folks who are doing that I keep seeing doing fabulously even in the hard economic times, and those that are still using reference points of a market from 10 or 20 or 50 years ago, oftentimes really struggling. So thank you so much for Sana for sharing that with us. You are busy human and our listeners are really really busy too. I can hang out and talk to you all day. But I wouldn't do that to you. And I wouldn't do that to our listeners. We will have everything we talked about in the show notes book, the new website, you're speaking all the things I can find the Asian leaders Alliance, anything I can find links, we'll put that in the show notes, so please listeners, go check out the book, go check out the new website. Aside from those Farzana if there was something you were hoping we were going to get to today, and we haven't touched on it yet, or there's something you'd like to leave our impact founder listeners with as we start to say goodbye. What would that be?
Farzana Nayani 49:27
There's a, an end to my blog that actually not only looks into the future, but looks into the past. And I talk a lot about, you know, the relationship with the native communities that we you know, the lands that we've settled on, and, you know, in in relationship to that also our relationship to the black community and in North America. And I think in particular, as we look at the future, how are we dealing with the past and any political All issues right now are related to us not actually resolving the past, or looking back at the past and not healing from it. And some of the work that I do has to do with that personal growth element and coaching. But there's a healing component that I think all of us as entrepreneurs actually have embarked on, we have an idea, it's it's an idea that we see as a solution. But it's, it's to heal, right, a process or a wound that hasn't been fixed. And I will encourage us to take that moment to look at how our communities that we're building, you know, in are affected by what we're building, and how we can give back. So that would be where I would leave, you know, the conversation around social impact dot dot dot for future conversation, but it will take that reflection also to look at the past as we build for the future.
Paul Zelizer 50:59
Rosana, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you, it
Farzana Nayani 51:03
was a pleasure.
Paul Zelizer 51:05
So that's all the time we have for today's interview. But before you go, just a quick reminder, we love listeners suggested topics and guests. So if you have an idea of somebody you think would be good for the show, go to the AWARE printers website. And on our contact page, we have three simple guidelines, we try to be super transparent about what kind of stories we're looking to amplify. And if it feels like a fit, we'd love to hear your ideas. So for now, I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care in these intense times. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our work.