163 | Power of the Opposite with Russ Hudson & Catherine Bell
Our guests on the pod for this episode are Russ Hudson & Catherine Bell. We've done recent interviews with them both individually, with extensive links to their work in their respective interviews. Catherine is the best selling author of The Awakened Company and founder of the company of the same name. Russ is the co-founder of the Enneagram Institute and the author of several best selling Enneagram books.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Catherine Bell & Russ Hudson Awarepreneurs Interview
SPEAKERS Paul Zelizer, Russ Hudson, Catherine Bell
Paul Zelizer 00:01 Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of the Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode, I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection, or today's episode, thought leaders plural, someone who has market tested experience and is already transforming many lives. Before I introduce our guests and tell you about our topic today have one request. If you could go to iTunes or whatever app you're listening to the show on and do a rating and review it helps tremendously. Today, I'm thrilled to bring back two of our recent guests, Katherine Bell and Russ Hudson. And our topic today is power of the opposites. There are longer introductions and BIOS for both Catherine and Ross in the show notes on their individual episodes, but I'll say in short, is that Katherine is the founder of the awakened company and a fabulous book about conscious business and conscious leadership of the same name, the awaken company. And Russ is the co founder of the enneagram Institute and the author of a number of best selling personal development group books, many of them on the enneagram Katherine Ross, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Paul. Thank you, Paul. So Good to have you both here. And since we already answered our typical question, and your individual, and let me just let me just back up for a second and say, we don't oftentimes have several guests. Matter of fact, we just had a fabulous entrepreneur and his wife both bring, you know, apply to come on the show together, we don't usually do that, because I like I'm an introvert, I like going deep. And I like being able to unpack things and nuances. But this topic of the power of the opposites and polarization and bringing a spiritual mindset to this time that we're in, it just felt like such. Yes. That kind of did something we don't often do. And I'm thrilled to do that with you all. And I think you're the right people for this conversation. So given that we've already answered your individual about practices that you use, the question I have to start today's episode for each of you is, what's a way that you're thinking about opposites or polarization or conflict or difference? That is, how is it a spiritual frame for you? And how are you thinking about it in a spiritual context in these poignant times? So who do you want to go first? Oh, whoever you open your mouth first. Ross, I think you're on.
Russ Hudson 02:32 Oh, boy, okay. Yeah, well, you know, my baileywick is teaching the enneagram. And although generally speaking, people if they know something about the anagram know about nine types, which one are you and you know, that's a nice entry way, entry level way of exploring what the anagram is about. The anagram really is fundamentally about finding the resolution of paradox. And paradox is always working with some kind of apparent opposite. And so you know, the anagram Is that funny looking little symbol with a circle and a triangle in it, and hex said, but the triangle in the circle is about that it's about the base of the triangle is that there's a yes, and no, a pro and a con and up and down, etc. And then that third point means there's always a deeper level at which we see the context, that that apparent opposite is arising in. And also the way that that apparent opposite can be creatively resolved into some kind of new possibility. So it's a very ancient idea, actually, this idea of law of three is that growth and transformation happens through this resolution of opposites. So it's a big part of how I look at things and how I consider things. In terms of practice. I think one way I tend to work with that, and I've been trained to do so by some very good teachers, is that I never think that what's going on in me is the wrong thing to be going on. In other words, if I'm having weird thoughts from anxious, etc, I don't try to get rid of the anxiety. I tried to meet it. I tried to be present with it. And this is the whole one way of looking at mindfulness, mindfulness in a kind of Vipassana sense of holding in and being with the content of our experience is always going to bring some kind of sense of those opposites. And you know, that happens in practice, if you know I'm sitting meditating comes up plenty of times, but it also occurs just in living life when I'm noticing, and this is where the anagram part comes in, when I'm noticing my judgments, my reactions, my kind of ego based responses to things, there's the opportunity to notice how given they are in a way, how not chosen, they just kind of unfold in me. But when I can actually bring this third force, this deeper place of witnessing, holding, bringing some kind of kindness to the proceedings, then something new and something creative, and usually something more interesting and exciting, can manifest. So I kind of look at things like that pretty much all the time.
Paul Zelizer 05:46 Beautiful. Catherine?
Catherine Bell 05:46 So, really building off of what Russ said, and having had the great honor and pleasure of working with both of you, you know, both of you are kind of like a fine guitar or fine cello, I played the cello when I was younger, or a flute or a drum set, that kind of it has resonance, both of you have resonance. And that resonance for both Ross and for you, Paul, is just waiting to be played. So it's that interaction, that all chemical interaction that can then create music. So for me, that's kind of taking a lot of three that Russ was speaking about, and really applying it to how we work together. And it to me, it's like that, that, that music and feeling the guitar and resonating with that guitar. And then out of that music is played. So to me that is the spiritual practice is the space in between working together, like just a very practical example. And how do we do that in a more collaborative and interdependent fashion is of deep interest to me. I'll think in Katherine, as you were sharing, the way that you know, the push and the pole and deepening of being in and with the opposite. It makes if we let it it hollows us out to use a Rumi analogy, like it's not always an easy process. But there's more resonance possible if we let the opposites work on us and do its magic, which isn't always fun or comfortable. You were saying that Ross, then there's more in the the resonance chamber if we can talk about it that way. So yeah, very much my experience. So
Paul Zelizer 07:39 it's a big topic. And I've been in many conversations of late about the level of, you know, polarization that we're seeing right now. How are you each thinking about this particular time when there is more sort of visible opposite ness, if that's even visible polarization is the way it's being talked about a lot in the media? And how are you each working on it in your own work? And then a little bit, we're going to talk about some work you're doing together?
Russ Hudson 08:14 Oh, clearly male here in the United States, were in a time of great polarization. Yeah, I don't think it's, you know, it's not that Canada has never had this issue, but we're really having it in a major way now. And I think, first off, when we're identifying with one end of one of these polarizations, we think that any kind of opening kindness, reasonableness, with the other end of the, of the stick, so to speak, is some kind of defeat or some kind of loss or admitting that we weren't right. But what I, when I look at history, I see that all the successful resolutions of major conflicts within a nation or internationally had to do with people building on common ground, which is not what's happening right now. So I have my own political leanings, I have my own political sensibilities, I'm somewhere on this spectrum of, you know, the left and the right. And there are people I encounter probably in both directions that I would not agree with everything they have to say. That being said, I'm always interested in the why people see it the way they do, what are they actually after? Whether I'm talking with a conservative or whether I'm talking with a liberal, alright, you that's the way you think we ought to get somewhere. But what is it you're actually after? What are you seeking and it always boils down to very basic human needs. And it's very hard to For us, to make somebody into other one, we're recognizing the humanity and commonality of our needs. So I try to navigate, again, between the set of opposites between, you know, holding to my, my own sensibilities my own values is probably the best word. And at the same time, not closing my heart to people who, at least at first blush would seem to have very different values than me. How can I meet them, if I can't, then I've, I've got an enemy, I've turned that person into an enemy. And when it's like that, it can only go a certain way, which is not a way I think we want to go. But you know that there is, the other thing I'd say about it is that it comes back to presence practice, my personality can't do that. My ego mind cannot do that. But in a moment of returning to myself coming into my breath, and sensation in my heart and my mind simmering down a bit, I can actually encounter a person and see them as something more than the political assumptions that they have come to. And then maybe we can have some kind of a conversation. Not always, but more often than if I don't do that.
Catherine Bell 11:27 Thanks, Catherine, how are you working with it in your practice, and your work is these days, for me, something that's been well researched, that's very, very important is the whole concept of psychological safety. And right now that is needed more than ever, including for a number of senior leaders, they are facing unprecedented challenges, no matter what their political leanings may be. And so for me, it's creating that open, kind of open vessel open perspective, to really listen and to really also question and invite them into more of their own deeper knowing, and allowing that to really unfold. And yet, if we don't have that psychological safety, none of it will happen. We'll just as we were speaking about earlier, just go us against them. We're how do we see ourselves in the other? That's a real invitation.
Paul Zelizer 12:28 So the two of you have gotten pretty excited about this, and are creating some conversations and some opportunities to learn particularly about the enneagram. How can learn to leverage the power of the enneagram to help shift some of this right to talk a little bit about that there's a way in which you're really passionate about saying, oh, understanding this deep body of spiritual tradition can help when we start to get into some of those not so helpful. Power, the opposites in the not so helpful way, right. And then there's a body of work that says, oh, if you understand a little bit more about who you are, and how you're wired, and who this other person is, or who the multiple other people that you're charged with working with, and they're really different than you, some good things can happen. How can the enneagram help in that process?
Russ Hudson 13:29 I think it does. So in a couple of ways, Paul, the more obvious way and is simply it becomes a deep teaching that we're coming from different places, but that's because we're bringing different gifts. That may be the situation requires my gift, but maybe some other people's gifts too. It's it's learning to listen for, and recognize what it is that other people are attempting to bring to the situation, particularly if there are conflicts and so forth. We we speak different love languages, we offer gifts in different ways. So that's that's kind of obvious. But I think the second one is actually a little harder to grasp at first but more important, which is it helps us see our own recurrent patterns of reactivity, judgment, shut down, etc. I always tell my my students that it is true that we can have experiences where we have transcended or seen through egoic consciousness, but it is a wise person that remembers that there's a pretty good chance that my ego is still around. I always say better to assume Elvis is still in the building and you know, We learn here with this as we grow in our capacity for mindfulness, for kindness, to be present in in with our experience, to notice the patterns that take us out of that. The intagram was originally a study of what, what distracted me from presence, what distracted me from mindfulness, what shut me down from my kindness and my deeper heart. So it becomes a training in seeing how the little eager volunteers in my consciousness that are, were formed when I was very young, and which run a lot of my egoic life will rush in to deal with various situations, but they might not be my wisest way of proceeding. So the anagram is a way of inaction in life in relationship while I'm on the job while I'm in a heated argument, to find that breath and see what's got my consciousness in that moment, what form Am I taking, what am I getting stuck in. And if I can see that it's a, an express path back to a more centered, mindful and responsive approach to whatever may be going on. So I think that's the main part of it. And it's, it's part of the work that I've been doing, the Katherine's been doing that we're trying to bring to people that that's really what the anagram is, it's not just a way to label people,
Paul Zelizer 16:38 Katherine, anything to add?
Catherine Bell 16:39 Well, just to you'll see, my my focus here is on the practical. So for example, like, the other day, I was going back and forth with Russ, and I just had a whole stream of ideas, just a whole stream of ideas. And then I asked him, you know, what are your thoughts? And then he said, on what topic? And to me that kind of I was laughing for so long about that, because to me that kind of showed our how opposite we are, and how that in that opposition, there's such power in it, because he made me focus on what what do I really what's my real question. And also knowing, for example, that Russ is more of a compliance that's just focused and minus more emotional realness. I always think about, okay, how do I bring the positive angle to what we're talking about. So knowing what you have, and what you don't have at in life and applying it to real life can be a complete game changer for people. And I think a lot of the people on the webinars that we're doing, from all the emails that I've been receiving, it has been a real lifeline for them during this time, and a real service to them during this time, so the enneagram to me is very interesting when it's actually brought to life.
Paul Zelizer 18:05 As the emotional realness person, Katherine, I'm gonna ask you a question, Russ, I want to hear if you have thoughts, too, but Sure. You two are different. And Katherine, you and I have known each other for years. Ross, you and I are getting to know each other, like if somebody was going to give, you know, ask me, How are Katherine Earth different, right, Katherine, you're like this very kind of practical, focused real kind of boots on the ground business leader working in these incredible institution, Russ, you have this, like spiritual mind of just a very well developed teacher, and understanding principles and practices within articulate sness and adapt. And those two ways of being are very different, right? And I don't even know you both that well. And this may be the first second conversation we've ever had the three of us together, right? So Catherine, somebody pays attention to emotional realness, and is wired part like what's it like to work with somebody who's really different than you?
Catherine Bell 19:04 Well, it's awakening, Paul, because Ross's wisdom and his attention to details, and also his ability to see, see see clearly and to see through things. Rough actually makes me turn towards my shadow, and to also to see the suffering and then that in that, in that seeing the suffering, there's a real open channel for real awakening and for real work, which is what I crave so much. And I think we both kind of, you know, I'll initiate things like, I'll be the kind of the fireball and then he gets it like there's never I never fear that he doesn't get it. And he really actualizes a number of things that are so important. I'd say the most important thing though, is rust really turns me towards my shadow and my suffering, and then that creates new things and new ways of being and doing together.
Paul Zelizer 20:10 Russ, how about you? What's it like to work with Katherine is really different than you are?
Russ Hudson 20:15 Well, you know, it's a lovely mirror image of what she was just saying. Yeah, I think that Katherine's kind of, full on approach to life and, and her action orientation, and her capacity to multitask and get a lot of things moving and grooving. And not sitting around by the side of the road, is very energizing for me. Also, it just helps me see when I'm really authentically pausing to understand something, and when I'm just, you know, caught up in my introversion and not wanting to deal with people or things. And so she kind of calls me out to play the separate speak, and, and gets and, and you know how it is, when there's someone who is like that that's working with you, it's easier for you to step up to the plate, I'll say, it's easier for me to step up to the plates easier for me to say, Okay, I can, I can actually do that today, I can get that done by Friday, I will do that. And so that kind of enthusiasm and energy and can do attitude is very contagious. But it also it as as you were just saying, Katherine and what it's when there's a certain way she does that it highlights my shadow, it makes me aware of how much I don't want to be involved with people and life and things. And that that's a reaction. That's one of my I'm in enneagram, five, that's a five ish reaction. It doesn't necessarily serve me. And there's a difference between it helps me see there's a difference between me getting the alone time I need to recharge my introvert battery. And you know, probably at least half of us out here introverts, so we know what that's like. And the kind of reflects against involvement, put myself out doing certain things, that becomes more pronounced for me when I'm not quite sure what's going to happen, or what will be asked of me or what will be required. Whereas Catherine doesn't have that inhibition in the same way. So, you know, I think that I like the way that you put it, it just, she draws me out, to attempt more to, to use my time more carefully, and to put my time into actions and proactive things in the world. And I think I help her pause and see where she really wants to go. have all these exciting, energizing activities? What what where's the gold, what's what really matters. So that I think is a good combo. You know, we we have worked well together that way.
Paul Zelizer 23:07 What a beautiful description of your differences.
Catherine Bell 23:10 And Paul, I was just thinking, you know, if we if Russ and I were to go swimming, I would be the one that dives right in The deepest part of the pool, you would die.
Catherine Bell 23:21 I'd be like diving right in, and Russ would be looking at the rocks, at the entryway to the water. You know, like that would be another kind of a way to describe it.
Paul Zelizer 23:33 So the second, I have a question for you about how you, personally and how you help people navigate some of those differences. But before we do that, I feel like it would be it's not who I am to not ask this question, the question that's on my mind, the power the opposites. Well, that's our topic today. Where we live in a world that, you know, not everybody is equal in some ways, like, spiritually, I believe we're all equal. But, you know, Katherine, you were saying before we turned on the recording, for instance, you had a week full of meeting with men, right? You've had that experience of being the only woman in the room more times. And I can't even imagine how many times you've had that experience or our listeners who are people of color, and understand that on one level, like, Hey, we live in a very diverse planet and working with people that are differently that look differently or are from a different religion or just different in all the you know, sexual orientation. How do we tap into this power the opposites and and get better at it without disappearing the fact that historically when there's emotional labor and this stuff requires work, you both talked about that? How do we not disappear that historically, some people let's say women in business have traditionally done a whole bunch More of this work then the men in the business.
Russ Hudson 25:03 Yeah, many years ago, I had a really long and interesting conversation with Ken Wilber. And at the time, he was really formulating his ideas about spiral dynamics, which some of you may know about. And he was looking at, at this whole, modern anti hierarchical view, which he thought in the long run would be destructive and corrosive. He called it the the Mean Green mean. But what was more interesting, I think, in that we talked about is the difference between the hierarchy of experience and a hierarchy of power, or dominance. It's really ridic. If I, if if I knew a child that was sick, and they needed surgery, I don't want to hand them over to somebody who's been in medical school for three months, or just read some articles about surgery on online, I want an experienced doctor. And to say that the one is the same as the other as you're saying, ball is just as silly. People, there are people who have more experience at something, there are men and women and people of different races, people of different religions, people of different ethnicities and genders who have different levels of experience. So my sense is, we we are struggling to shift toward a culture that honors experience and wisdom that comes through experience versus a dominate a dominant kind of society, when we talk about the idea of patriarchy, you know, really, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about a power hierarchy, that does not necessarily reflect greater experience wisdom, or anything of the sort. It's just a power imbalance. So for me, you know, it's same thing if I'm wanting to learn about these, this kind of inner work. Yeah, I'm sure somebody who's when I was 23. And sitting around, I probably had an idea or two. But I think if you had a choice between talking to the 23 year old me and the mean, now, the mean now has a little more interesting things to say, in terms of how you navigate in her life, and so forth. And that isn't always even just a function of age, but it is a function of experience. So my whole my whole sense, just again, to round it all up is we're trying to find a way to not erase the sense of difference between people that's silly, and everybody kind of objects to that. We are different. We come from different backgrounds, we have, as I said earlier, we have different gifts to bring culturally and from our what comes naturally to us for many reasons. And also we have different levels of experience. That being the case, we want to take all of that as a kind of emergent possibility in the face of these historic and slowly dying power hierarchies, which are based mostly on ownership, wealth and other factors. Yeah, I think, I think everybody gets what I'm saying probably.
Paul Zelizer 28:23 Okay. Catherine, what's your,
Catherine Bell 28:25 uh, my sense is we need to invite people in, we need people to feel included. I'm very, very thankful because I have had a whole bunch of men around me throughout my life who've always believed in me, you know, my father, my grandfather's my uncle's like, they were just ruthlessly supportive of me and believe that anything was was possible. And so for me, it's how do I create that ruthless support for, for other for others, and invite them into the conversation with me. And that's one of the things I'm really excited about with this Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation is it's a really diverse group of people that are involved. And so I am personally looking at how do I really broaden and invite people in who are who are different than I am because I find the difference really alive and really helpful for my own perspective. And it's from little thing for recommending other people for board positions, people who wouldn't maybe typically be invited to those board positions. So again, very practically, it's for everybody to really consider how can we invite other people to the work we're doing the conversations we're having. It's also impacted the way A charity that I've gotten involved in called the impact society. And it works with a very diverse group of people. And so for me, it's like, Okay, how can I be helpful? How can I serve here? And recognizing, you know, in Canada, the history is not all that pretty, there's a lot of work to be done. And if we don't inviting people in, then it will never change. So getting back to kind of my family roots is making sure everyone feels invited and that they know they have somebody behind them, who who will support them, and not only support them, rather encourage them to take bolder steps.
Russ Hudson 30:40 Yeah, I think I just building on that, Katherine, I think that word to invite is really important to invite people who have been historically and hitherto disenfranchised, not part of the power hierarchies to bring them in. The other word I would add, which I suspect you will like to is also to do mentoring. I find mentoring different than, you know, managing or directing or even it's broader than teaching. But it's helping people acquire the experience, as I was saying, and skills so that they can flower, their contributions, and the Spirit. And so as I'm looking to build my team, at this time, around the enneagram, I'm looking at all those things and wanting to invite groups of people who typically would nest not necessarily have found their way to what we're doing. And at the same time, I'm also wanting to give my time and energy to mentoring them so that they can go back represent these things in their communities, but also become part of a more unified human movement, about what it is we're trying to do here.
Paul Zelizer 31:55 Let's do this. Love the conversation, we can can come back and ask you some more questions about the specifics of how you do this with people. Before we do that, I just want to say thank you to our sponsors. This is a member supported podcast. It's sponsored by a group of over 300 impact and awareness entrepreneurs called the aware printers community. And what we do in the Awarepreneurs Community is we do that kind of boots on the ground stuff that we're talking about the Katherine so good, like, help people learn how to use podcasts to get their message out there either as a host or a guest or getting more skillful with LinkedIn and finding some of the real thought leaders in your space. How do you do that? Instagram, we have an Instagram pots, really granular business growth strategies and networks, for our kind of businesses, as well as some of the human like just how you do it in these poignant times with check ins and sharing opportunities and community cops. So you could use a little more support for your impact and awareness based business. Go check out the web printers community at a web printers.com forward slash community. And thank you our printers for sponsoring this podcast. So Ross and Catherine, I'm listening to this. And this makes sense. I'm resonating with this idea of the power the app sets. And it also just on fun being honest, as a listener, or just even me as Paul, there are times it just rubs me the wrong way. It's hard. And I feel tired. And especially right now, yesterday, I was just feeling really fatigued. And you know, it was just, it's working me if I want to get better at this idea of the power of the opposites. What are your top one or two or three tips each of you for? How do we get better?
Russ Hudson 33:47 Why don't you go first this time, Katherine, I've got some thoughts, but they're kind of cooking. He have a response?
Catherine Bell 33:53 Well, first, Paul, I just want to thank you for your vulnerability. I think everybody has had moments during this crazy time that we're in a feeling this exhaustion. I think there's a real invitation for us to take the moments to really allow the love in and and feel the support that is always here. And also to never forget that you always have a friend Paul, for example, I will always be here for you if you need support on those tough days. So knowing when to draw on your lifelines, and I guess getting clear on for me it's become very, very clear during this time who, who I have been basically meant to spend time with and those connections and to feel that love and the connection. I just I just that's what gets me through the hard days. Is that that love and allowing that love to? To actually, for me to feel it?
Paul Zelizer 35:10 That's what you got.
Russ Hudson 35:12 I certainly would agree that, you know, we get by with a little help from our friends. That's true allies, friends people to talk with, I think, you know, well Mr. gurdjieff, used to say the the work, the inner work he was speaking about is it, he said it's not difficult to do alone, it's impossible. And for a lot of reasons, and it's even under good circumstances, given the amount that needs to be accomplished. It's pretty normal and natural to get overwhelmed. It's pretty natural to feel exasperated to throw our arms up, because gee whiz people do act like idiots more often than any of us would prefer. And sometimes the idiot is me. And that's extra tough. I think that having friends having places to talk about it, and also just to be merciful in terms of understanding what I can realistically do. We overwhelm ourselves with what we see could be done. And it's, it's, if it's overwhelming us, then it's not serving us. So there's a way in which I think we move forward by keeping our eyes on the immediate tasks at hand, where can I make a difference in my life, as I'm living it, what is arising for me to do? If we try to think about all this in the abstract, it gets real overwhelming. If I had to think about all the people I've got to talk with and what they expect of me and what I think I've got to be for all those people, I'll just kill over it, forget it, I'll just flop on my bed and watch the fan turn over my head. But I think that when I just, you know, it's a bit like the 12 steps, you know, it's a bit like one day at a time, we can get where we need to go as is we're taking, you know, bite size, portions along the way. It's normal also to be impatient. It's normal. But with that impatience also comes frustration and despair, the sense of hopelessness in the face of the enormity of some of the problems that we face, you know, it seems like we deal with one problem, and then we look behind it, and there are 10 more. But again, we're not going to deal with all that by overwhelming our minds and making up all kinds of images in our head of how things can go badly. I think we do it by and through our presence here and now through contact with where we actually are and dealing Well, with this moment. One of my mentors used to say, presence, prepares. He said, Let me get it right. He said, presence repairs the past and prepares the future. presence repairs the past and prepares the future. So I think the more we're learning to deal with it, and come back again and again, to being where we are, the more our real path, and the way that is right for us will become clearer will manifest as we go.
Paul Zelizer 38:36 I love that Ross repairs the past and prepares the future. I kind of remember that. Thank you. So the two of you decided to do this series of classes on the enneagram one of them on the power opposite. Why did you start that particular series? And in particular, how are you working with students about this topic of our conversation today?
Russ Hudson 39:06 Well, you know, I I try to have students understand once they've come through the entryway of trying to figure out what their enneagram type is to present them with this idea of the law of three, that in that moment of breath and relaxation, which by the way, is the practical component. You know, we live even when we think we're being practical, we're living in abstractions most of the time, but to actually come back to where we are, and see what we're facing with fresh eyes, brings another kind of creativity into the mix. And I tried to have them have experiences of that through exercises, through homework that they do between classes. And you know, because it's intrinsically part of our Human nature, our human minds seem to work this way. No matter where I teach in the world, no matter what culture I'm working with, people get it. And it's more like helping them remember a superpower that they forgot that they had. So it's built into the way I try to have them learn about the enneagram as a whole, and about what they can do about their enneagram type as they live their lives.
Catherine Bell 40:32 And, Paul, I think what Russ and I are doing together is also really modeling a new way of working together. So it's very collaborative, it's interdependent, it's not dependent. And we've recently drafted a vision, which is for anything that we do together, is really for it to act as a vehicle of love in service to a more whole in integrated humanity. So the whole integrated humanity, everything we do comes from a place of how can we serve. So it initially are working together more formally recently happened, because we offered a series of YouTube free youtube videos for people during this time of COVID, right at the beginning, and then our work has emerged from them. And we both from from there, and we both have our own kind of our own gigs, so to speak. And yet, in the moment, we are building out something new together. And I really feel it's a new way, and a different way of working together. It's like what is needed, and allowing that to emerge. So it kind of comes from a different, a different place. And it speaks to how it is an opposite way of doing of command and control. It's very opposite. It's much more holistic, and it's an in a container of trust. We trust each other implicitly. We don't rest Do we have a formal business agreement? No, you know, like we do things in, really to be of service. Like that's why we're here. And that's why we're doing work.
Paul Zelizer 42:24 And I love that, you know, we have Katherine you have this fairly high powered experience and training in the business leadership and conscious leadership world scrape book. And Ross, you've been doing this personal and spiritual development work for decades. And that the way you to dance the stance of respecting each other's backgrounds and personal differences and actually even enjoy it, you to laugh a lot. Which I think is a good sign. Just there's a there's a respect and a care, that kind of interdisciplinary approaches to these kinds of issues. And this time, there's both a depth and a lightness that I really appreciate. And I think you post remodeling
Russ Hudson 43:14 and give Yeah, I don't know, it certainly makes it more fun. I've been in partnerships where it hasn't always been fun. And I've been in some of the debate you that's another thing we learn as we go, don't we we learn how to work creatively with other people.
Paul Zelizer 43:33 So as you look forward to start you both been at your respective disciplines for decades, and you're you're carrying humans who are in a really paying attention to what's happening with your other humans on this planet and feeling intensely and feeling called to be of service and as powerful a way you know how, when you when you look forward from here, maybe you don't look over us maybe you're so in the moment, there's no future, I don't know. But like most of the leaders, I'm talking to, you know, geez in Europe. masilela leaders I know are feeling a particular poignancy in this moment as a human family on the planet Earth. And as you're feeling your version of that poignancy, what's going through your head about the power of opposites and the body of work that you're here to teach in right now and what you're being asked or invited to that maybe you haven't been asked or invited you weren't aware of before, didn't seem like a possibility or like, wow, it's really important to do this now. When in the past, maybe, like, how is this all impacting you now and going for?
Russ Hudson 44:53 It really good question, Paul. Yeah, like everyone else. I have my days where I'm more gung ho and getting up and rolling up my sleeves, they have some days where I'm thinking, Wow, we are so screwed. You know, it's, it's hard for me sometimes, I've been talking to my students, since the early 90s, about the fact that we're moving into quite a pivotal time for humanity. And, you know, people saw this coming from, you know, the middle of the 20th century. And here we are. And there's a sense of realizing that a lot of the methods that were used, were not sufficiently effective. And so we need to be creative, we need to rethink this, we need to invite other voices, we need to look at this from where we are now, because we aren't in 1968, California or something, we're here. And I think that from here, we may get some other signals. I sometimes have felt as if you know, if you can imagine some high command, trying to help struggling humanity out, it's almost like we said, Well, that didn't work. So stay tuned, we're sending you some new missions and some new ideas now. And I think that's happening. I also see the need to implement these things. And this is where katheryn skills come in, they have to be implemented more quickly, and more thoroughly. I don't think we have infinite time to screw around with this stuff. We're in a, there is a deadline, so to speak, there's a certain frame of time, a certain measure of time in which we hopefully can move a certain distance internally. And that internal distance will manifest Of course, in a difference in how we manifest and interact with each other. I think that's crucial. By also, you know, like, everyone, I do have my moments, right? When are we actually going to do this? There are moments you know, I'm a big fan of The Lord of the Rings, books and movies. And there's moments where definitely feels like Frodo, am I really going to get this ring to the darn volcano? It looks pretty dubious. But I think my attitude like Frodo is, even if it's hopeless, I'm still going to do my mission. Even if it looks pretty bad. I don't know what else I do with my time on Earth. It's so clear to me in my heart that this is what my life is for. This is what we human beings could be about that. Everything else seems kind of like a waste of time, it becomes obvious that it's a distraction. So I just wake up every day and pray for the strength to do what I got to do that day. This one is no exception.
Paul Zelizer 48:06 Theater, Sharon Ross, I thought a Martin Luther King might be getting it a little bit off. But he said even if tomorrow was my last day, I'd still plant my apple trees today.
Russ Hudson 48:17 That's That's exactly it. You know, I hear
Paul Zelizer 48:19 your I hear that a similar flavor to what you're suggesting there. So thing about this is the best I know how to do today. And I'm going to do my full passion, presence and care.
Russ Hudson 48:30 There's there's that great line in Hamilton to that. What is the legacy a legacy is planting the seeds of a garden that you'll never get to see.
Paul Zelizer 48:41 Katherine, how about you what's on your mind as you're sitting with these incredibly poignant times and how you're showing up?
Catherine Bell 48:49 First, that was just that was so sweet to listen to both of you just there. So I guess it's important to know, like, I have two kids. And so the Oregon company, their names are john and Michael and the awaking company, over the last few years, I've been humming along, and very focused on maintaining the balance so that I could really be there for my children, because that's super, super, super important to me. And COVID has really changed my perspective in terms of how I can share the work without actually having to leave them. So that's been a real benefit of COVID. For me, and also having john and Michael. It's a real impetus to be of service to however I can be. However, this was the smallest thing I come back to Paul what we talked about with Dr. Julian barling. What's the smallest thing I can do to be of service and to help other people through this time to help other organizations to help to help CEOs to help leaders To help kids yesterday I was I went for a walk in the late afternoon and a little girl just ran up to me. And she was just excited to talk to another human being. And so back to what's the smallest thing we can do to be of service to people during this time, I just think it's so, so important. And also for us to think, to use this time to really be more creative and to let that creative wave wash over us to enable something new, and to enable a new way of being in doing for our kids, Paul, you know, I think a Rachel as well, and this and all of our kids, I don't want them. I just feel you know, today to my son, I as he's going off to school with his mass in his bag, I just apologized. Like, I'm so sorry.
Paul Zelizer 50:58 You're like that little girl, Catherine, like having a podcast and at least being willing to be in conversation and find people who've thought about things with so much care as you both have on this topic, and, and be willing to at least have a conversation. And then it's recorded and other people can listen. And it's one of the things that's one of my apple trees, like just a mile and a half hard, you know, a conversation about anything, particularly the hard things that people who know more than I do. I feel like that little girl and I get to turn on the mic and just say, all right, What are y'all doing and how you thinking about this, because it's a mess out there. You know, I light up when people are willing to have these kinds of conversations. So I'm so grateful to you both. So to start to wind this down, if you're going to leave our audience with one thing, maybe something they can start to, you know, move the needle in their world about being more intentional, being more skillful, just being more embracing of the power of opposites that they could like start to implement one would be, go check out your class of NES. Is there anything else you might suggest to our listener about how they might operationalize the power of opposites in their life?
Russ Hudson 52:23 Katherine brought this word in earlier. And I think for most people, the working with this usually starts off on a personal level with what we call Shadow Work. Shadow Work is working with power of opposites. If I'm trying to be strong, then nine, my shadow is around feeling weak or vulnerable or helpless. If my ego ideal is to be smart than my my shadow is being ignorant, not knowing, feeling clueless, you know, and so on. Yet, all our ego is driven as a reaction to the shadow perceptions. There's some way that we actually believe that that's what we are. So we're trying full time to be the opposite. You know, I should be a kind, loving, selfless person, and I'm afraid of being a selfish, uncaring, cruel person, right?
Paul Zelizer 53:26 So
Russ Hudson 53:27 I think is, there's a way that we can start to notice what there is in this that we're avoiding. Because as long as we're doing that, we're kind of stuck. And it isn't that we again, we're not like handing over everything to this opposite extreme. But we're beginning to notice it, we're beginning to bring presence to it. And it's more like discovering how I am both. As I was saying, in the beginning, I am both loving. And it's really important that I take care of myself, and be ever kind of intelligent selfishness, or I won't have much to offer to others. It is true that I really want to know and understand things, but I need to be kind of open fisted and in a state of an innocent not knowing to really receive new information that's actually smarter than trying to be smart, and so on and so forth. So I think that just becoming sensitive to what we're trying to be. And what we're trying to avoid is is a natural place for people to begin and we get better at it as we do it. No one expects us to be a master of that the first few times out
Paul Zelizer 54:43 Catherine.
Catherine Bell 54:45 So I would invite people to consider, you know, to complete the following sentence, I am blank in service to so just really for people who are like listening to this, I am blank. And in service to the other question I would invite people to consider is, what do you want to take a stand for? And also, what do you want to take a seat for? And just to consider the different energies that both of those bring to the table. So that's something I really so many people don't know, kind of their own inner compass. If you don't know your own inner compass, it's very hard to create a different North Star. So the creation of an I am blank in service to. And really, what do you take a stand for? And what do you take a seat for?
Paul Zelizer 55:44 great suggestions. I just want to thank you both for being on the show today.
Russ Hudson 55:51 Thank you, Paul. It's been it's been fun. And, you know, we always have good conversations. Very fun. Thank you new things to think about.
Catherine Bell 56:03 Thank you, Paul, for your vulnerability and your realness, because through your vulnerability, but speaking how you were feeling yesterday, you invited me into a whole different level and layer within myself, and Russ, you always poke me to really think differently. So thank you both. Because, again, back to that fine instrument, you know, the guitar, and having that resonance, and just letting the music flow. So thank you both.
Russ Hudson 56:33 Thank you both.
Paul Zelizer 56:35 Thank you both the mapa links to the series are doing together the power the opposite class. One of the new initiatives, Catherine mentioned the Canadian center for the purpose of the corporation or your websites and your books, my gardens going to be wonderful show. So for now, I just want to say thank you to our listeners, we couldn't do this without you literally we wouldn't want to we're here for you. And we now are doing two episodes a week. If you have a suggestion about a topic or a guest please go to the aware of wept aware printers website and click on the Contact page and let us know your thoughts. For now I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please, please take really good care in these points in time. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're having.
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